The Poolie Bunker

Well according to Trump anyway. The bloke makes Johnson look like a genius!!!!

mind you it would be quite reasonable to say that we started the war with germany in 1939 by declaring war first against them.

The more I listen to Trump the more I can’t take him seriously, first was buy Greenland, amalgamate Canada with the Stares then take over the running of the Panama Canal.
He is becoming a few lettuce leaves short of a salad with some of his fleeting statements.

Poundland Attila the Hun

Check this video out. 11 minutes is all it takes to understand the truth.
https://youtu.be/NcOaEagn4gY?si=LdRvX08awsJ73IYw

He is actually correct. Russia was ready to end the war and withdraw its troops in exchange for Ukrainian neutrality just a few months after the invasion began and was refused partly because of Boris Johnson, who pressured Kyiv into continuing the fight.

I find that hard to believe to be honest more so who would take notice of Johnson, didn’t he have a meeting with some Russian fella ?

many said exactly the same about him when and before he bacame prisident last time around. did not do too bad then for his country and world peace.

It’s well known Johnson was involved in sabotaging the peace deal and it has also been confirmed by David Arahamiya, the leader of Ukraine’s ruling party.

would have cost the country some money though if he had not done that through supplying of arms to keep it going. that comes before any deaths but they,ll never admit it.

That’s pretty much what you can say about Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc.
Or even as far back as the Korean War, Vietnam …

i have always said it and for others who become rich on the death of others in other countries. we might not like illegal immigrants but no body in there right mind are going to go out and kill any of them but would if we put troups on the ground in a country where they came from. something i just cannot get my head around. just because the government says such and such are the bad guys nobody needs to follow them and slaughter people who live in a country your next door neighbour is from. more or less people are being used for a government fight between two countries as in most wars where your country is not in danger itself.

The potential of Ukraine joining NATO certainly was a factor.
But whatever he's said it's action to finish it that matters and his administration looks to be on a track that will do it. To date all the rhetoric and support has encouraged the war a d deaths to continue. Victory was never going to happen for Ukraine, the focus has to be on a lasting and acceptable Peace deal.

Only because Hitler had invaded Poland without bothering to declare war - just like Putin invaded Ukraine. Great Britain had given the Poles a guarantee months before that it would come to Poland's aid if attacked.

That was back in the days when countries honoured their treaty obligations.

NATO was never going to be a treat to Putin even if Ukraine were a member, what was Putins ultimate goal by invading Ukraine, reforming the old USSR ?

It's sad when you see Russians buying into the propaganda but at least they have an excuse, it being the only info they have access to. It's pathetic when westerners are gullible enough to swallow it though, zero excuse for that.

No to set borders that prevented a threat from NATO countries. You can go right back to the 1990s when the USA pulled out of the immediate range nuclear forces treaty that meant effectively the USA could install weapons in the countries that bordered Russia.
Imagine Russia or China deploying weapons on the border of Mexico?
There’d be absolute hell on.

True.

Russian nonsense. They've had hundreds and hundreds of miles of borders with Nato countries for decades. Missiles don't need to be in neighbouring countries to be fired on one another. Hasn't been the case for over 50 years. It's outdated nonsense, same as the Nazi guff.

Exactly right--since 1997 Nato has expanded eastwards---and Russia has been consistent that having Ukraine in NAto was unacceptable to them--we can say that is unreasonable but we cant be surprised.
Was Russia response proportional?--No in my opinion--but to claim it was unprovoked is a blatant lie

The irony of you wringing your hands about people buying into propoganda
You can look at first hand speeches on the internet going back decades where Russia's consistent position on Ukraine was it was a no no.

As I said are russia teh good guys of course not--but if people genuinely believe that this was an 'unprovoked invasion' then they are the victims of propoganda....they probably still believe the bollocks on Nordstream that Russia actually blew up their own pipeline they had spent billions on

I feel sorry for Ukraine who have been used as a pawn for a macro argument between the west and russia with both sides happy for working class kids to be killed by the 10s of thousands to 'weaken' the other side.

Jamie just think of Governments as well armed Cartels and you won,t be far from the truth.

That is True, NATO have been prodding the bear for sometime.

Nope. Putin thought he could do a Crimea with the rest of Ukraine in a few days. It was just about his ego. The rest is cock and bull excuses and sadly people are buying it. He saw Ukraine as the new Belarus. Same is happening in Georgia. It's what he does.

Don,t expect KS to honor anything, He lies through his teeth to his OWN.

Yeh its all about 1 mans meglomania and the West hasnt done anything to provoke it---The answer IMO is obviously not one good guy vs one bad guy---the West made a number of errors and power grabs that helped lead up to this.

They Russians did in 63 in Cuba….there nearly was hell on.

Which power grabs were they? Who was forced into NATO and why is that a power grab?

Its going to take a lot of negotiations and a bit of give from both sides for this to become finalised.
Hopefully this won’t involve Zelensky who, if Trump gets his way may have to face the polls very soon.
Putin isn’t scared of Trump, it’s probably the other way round but I believe there’s mutual respect between the two which can only be beneficial.
I’m glad Harris didn’t win the election because we could have been facing WW3 by the end of the year.

Nope. Putin thought he could do a Crimea with the rest of Ukraine in a few days. It was just about his ego. The rest is cock and bull excuses and sadly people are buying it. He saw Ukraine as the best Belarus. Same is happening in Georgia. It's what he does.[/quote]


Yeh its all about 1 mans meglomania and the West hasnt done anything to provoke it---The answer IMO is obviously not one good guy vs one bad guy---the West made a number of errors and power grabs that helped lead up to this.[/quote]

Which power grabs were they? Who was forced into NATO and why is that a power grab?[/quote]

If another group of countries is expanding towards your border and making noises about how bad you are/how you need to be fundamentally reshaped, its naive to think you wouldn't perceive that as a threat.
As people have said look at what happens when the boot is on the other foot--when countries like Cuba historically and Venezuela more recently aligned with Russia then it all kicked off.
Am sure Taiwan would like to be part of Nato--do you really think that would be a sensible thing to do because 'they want to join'

yeh no guarantee of success but the staus quo of 10s of thousands dying, arms companies getting rich and Western politicians with no skin in the game pretending to be Churchill needs to stop

Trump wants to be Putin. Pound to a penny he'll be talking about allowing a Third Term before long. Did he tell Putin he should try holding free and fair elections, without murdering his biggest rival? Thought not.

Boom!

The Russian psyche is that they have always been subject to invasion.
Napoleon….
.Invaded by the Germans in WW1 and they pulled out the war after the Brest Litovsk Treaty and ceded land to Germany.
.WW2 again with an estimated loss of 27 million lives.
That’s why after the war they used the Eastern bloc countries as a buffer as invasions came from the west.
With the end of the Soviet Union Ukraine and Belarus became the buffer states against NATO….when the government was overthrown in Ukraine, the alarm bells started ringing in Moscow.
It’s been Russian folklore since time immemorial that the world has it in for them.
Applying Western values to Russia is a mistake.

Johnson has changed his mind and tune today.

Some good points here--you have to try and understand the other sides perception of what you are doing--Some very naive posters here who cant get past 'Putin bad' in terms of their thinking.

Yeh its all about 1 mans meglomania and the West hasnt done anything to provoke it---The answer IMO is obviously not one good guy vs one bad guy---the West made a number of errors and power grabs that helped lead up to this.[/quote]

Which power grabs were they? Who was forced into NATO and why is that a power grab?[/quote]

If another group of countries is expanding towards your border and making noises about how bad you are/how you need to be fundamentally reshaped, its naive to think you wouldn't perceive that as a threat.
As people have said look at what happens when the boot is on the other foot--when countries like Cuba historically and Venezuela more recently aligned with Russia then it all kicked off.
Am sure Taiwan would like to be part of Nato--do you really think that would be a sensible thing to do because 'they want to join'[/quote]

You don't have to follow Putins crap too, no cathedral spotters are going to come and poison you in your own home or accidentally chuck you out of a high window.

It's about sovereign right. That's what the likes of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania all exercised, years ago, all bordering with Russia, when they joined NATO and what Sweden and Finland did recently, previoysly neutral for years and under no pressure from anywhere else other than Russian aggression.

Obama brought about the ‘Arab Spring’..destroying Syria, Libya and nearly wrecked Egypt…..trying to make them like ‘us’ where did all these refugees suddenly appear from…thousands died but people think he’s a cool guy…..
It’s all about presentation, forget the body count.

Trump talks in riddles so dont take what he says literally.

Putin, Trump, Xi Jinping, The North Korean Man Child. The 4 biggest Ego's on the planet in charge of the biggest arsenal's. Deciding how they want to carve the world up - you have Ukraine, I'll have Canada and Greenland, maybe Disneyland Gaza, you can have Taiwan. Give it a few months, you can have Georgia as well. Anyone bothered about South Korea? Dangerous times to be alive. All just doff your caps and wait to be told what fate awaits you.

Which power grabs were they? Who was forced into NATO and why is that a power grab?[/quote]

If another group of countries is expanding towards your border and making noises about how bad you are/how you need to be fundamentally reshaped, its naive to think you wouldn't perceive that as a threat.
As people have said look at what happens when the boot is on the other foot--when countries like Cuba historically and Venezuela more recently aligned with Russia then it all kicked off.
Am sure Taiwan would like to be part of Nato--do you really think that would be a sensible thing to do because 'they want to join'[/quote]

You don't have to follow Putins crap too, no cathedral spotters are going to come and poison you in your own home or accidentally chuck you out of a high window.

It's about sovereign right. That's what the likes of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania all exercised, years ago, all bordering with Russia, when they joined NATO and what Sweden and Finland did recently, previoysly neutral for years and under no pressure from anywhere else other than Russian aggression.[/quote]

So in your world view, if Taiwan wants to be part of NATO thats a sensible policy we should pursue---I guess you would tell all those Russian and Ukrainian kids dragged into a fight and dying its worth it due to 'sovereign rights'

Yep and even Obama was sensible enough to pour cold water on Ukraine joining Nato-

If another group of countries is expanding towards your border and making noises about how bad you are/how you need to be fundamentally reshaped, its naive to think you wouldn't perceive that as a threat.
As people have said look at what happens when the boot is on the other foot--when countries like Cuba historically and Venezuela more recently aligned with Russia then it all kicked off.
Am sure Taiwan would like to be part of Nato--do you really think that would be a sensible thing to do because 'they want to join'[/quote]

You don't have to follow Putins crap too, no cathedral spotters are going to come and poison you in your own home or accidentally chuck you out of a high window.

It's about sovereign right. That's what the likes of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania all exercised, years ago, all bordering with Russia, when they joined NATO and what Sweden and Finland did recently, previoysly neutral for years and under no pressure from anywhere else other than Russian aggression.[/quote]

So in your world view, if Taiwan wants to be part of NATO thats a sensible policy we should pursue---I guess you would tell all those Russian and Ukrainian kids dragged into a fight and dying its worth it due to 'sovereign rights'[/quote]

They can't be members. Its NATO.

Dragged into a fight? Someone decided to invade twice in the space of 8 years, a peaceful neighbour who had a right to be a member of what the hell organisation they liked. No invasion = no problem.

You don't have to follow Putins crap too, no cathedral spotters are going to come and poison you in your own home or accidentally chuck you out of a high window.

It's about sovereign right. That's what the likes of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania all exercised, years ago, all bordering with Russia, when they joined NATO and what Sweden and Finland did recently, previoysly neutral for years and under no pressure from anywhere else other than Russian aggression.[/quote]

So in your world view, if Taiwan wants to be part of NATO thats a sensible policy we should pursue---I guess you would tell all those Russian and Ukrainian kids dragged into a fight and dying its worth it due to 'sovereign rights'[/quote]

They can't be members. Its NATO.

Dragged into a fight? Someone decided to invade twice in the space of 8 years, a peaceful neighbour who had a right to be a member of what the hell organisation they liked. No invasion = no problem.[/quote]

Ok so why cant Taiwan be part of it?--Because of Geography?--
Good you agree that geography plays a big part in this--and if you are surrouding a country/pushiing your alliance towards it they will perceive that as a threat.
No one is saying Putin or Russia are the good guys, but the west made the decision to expand eastwards knowing the implications--massive mismanagement there (giving them the benefit of the doubt they didn't want to sacrifice Ukraine to weaken Russia)

"The west' made no such a decision. There is no imagined shady 'west' here unless its in the mind of one of those Russian 'news'reader. The sovereign states decided to join. Free countries, using that sovereignty thing that people keep talking about as being such an important reason for Brexit. So sovereignty is only for those who don't have a twat as a neighbour? I would say, don't be aggressive knob heads with your neighbours if you don't want them joining defensive treaty organisations.

You could also say "no potential for NATO membership = no invasion".

Yeh thats all very nice in theory--but not in the real world---again based on your argument
' I would say, don't be aggressive knob heads with your neighbours if you don't want them joining defensive treaty organisations.'
Then its a good idea for Taiwan to join some mutual defensive pact with the West and we should embrace that and if that means going to war with China so be it.

You could. It's not unlawful to be wrong.

NATO is a defensive pact so what is the actual threat to Russia unless they are planning to expand their borders.

Why are the Russians saying that any peace deal has to include a guarantee that Ukraine will never be allowed to join NATO then? Of course the threat of NATO expansion towards the Russian borders was used as part of the justification for war.
You're 100% correct it's not illegal to be wrong, some if us admit when we're wrong, others believe every word they utter or write is gospel. Which would you categorise yourself as?