......our best performer so far this season. Some of his saves have been top drawer.

The club have stuck with him through thick & thin as they saw something in him. I for one have never been a critic of him and i think now pools are getting the reward.
Well done Ben.

Let the abuse begin

Do your job and you won’t get ‘abuse’……. Cue tumbleweeds rolling by.

If Killip has been our best player then everyone else hasn't been doing their job.

In theory a goalkeeper should never touch the ball.

As a poster commented our defence must be leaking like a sieve if he has to make that many saves.

Where is that theory written that says a goalie should never touch the ball.

That theory is so far fetched to be classed as ridiculous, proven by the fact that no professional team in this country will take to the field without someone between the sticks.

Your namesake Peter Shilton once had this said about him "my goalkeeper is worth 20 plus points per season"
The man who said that was a certain Mr Clough.

Jesus wept.

Can you not read between the lines?

Of course it's not serious.

The point I'm making, that really shouldn't need explaining, is that if an opposition player is given the time/space/whatever to get a shot away, someone hasn't been marking properly/seen the danger/anticpated the danger/tackled the ball carrier/has given the ball away etc etc etc

Worse still, if your keeper has been your best player, he's seeing far too much action and therefore quite a few outfield players aren't doing what they should be doing and/or aren't good enough.

Hope that helps

Nah I'm reading what you said. If you want me to read something else then write something else.
I asked a simple question, nothing complicated, except obviously for you.

Anyone who understands football would understand the sentiment in my original post.

I'll leave it there thanks.

It's like asking you the time and getting the name of the clock, the clockmaker, which shift it was made on and who the foreman was.

I see the problem, now if we did away with outfield players and just put opposing keepers on the pitch who must stay in the six yard box, they could then take turns sending long speculative lobs from end to end, like some WW1 artillery duel.
Shit idea of course………

shilts..."If Killip has been our best player then everyone else hasn't been doing their job.In theory a goalkeeper should never touch the ball."

....wow...such footballing insight and what a theory..clearly another bunker footie connoisseur...of course totally agree and ramsey's england proves it..well overrated team and tbh as you say players regularly "not doing their jobs".. just think of the saves banks had to make to cover for the mistakes of others..how the hell did we win the world cup when our keeper was so busy and having to make all those saves?...its an absolute education reading some of the "theory" that gets put up on here...wonderful...thanks for posting ..ffs..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngE9RCAdWaE

not sure if he meant the saves he made. could be the whole defence will play better and be more relaxed with a keeper behind them they fully trust. its been mentioned before on here about the pools defence going into panic mode on corners and free kicks from out wide that come into the box. only seen one game live and the defence was not under great presure from these set pieces even if they conceeded one.

[quote="shilts"][

Worse still, if your keeper has been your best player, he's seeing far too much action and therefore quite a few outfield players aren't doing what they should be doing and/or aren't good enough anyone involved with the sunday league or kids football will see many weeks that a keeper gets the man of the match award even when letting in double figure amount of goals. thats because for a full game he has resembled a cocanut at the fairground game. even the worst will save a few.

Look. If in speculative ‘theory’ the goalkeeper shouldn’t need to touch the ball, the game would not have needed goalkeepers would it.
It has goalkeepers.

I think you've all jumped on what is a pretty fair comment. Shilts hasn't said, in theory, no one needs goalkeepers, he's said in theory your whole team should be defending well enough to prevent the opposition from having shots on goal and therefore keeping the amount of saves that need to be made to a minimum (ideally none).
No matter how good your goalkeeper is, if he faces a large amount of decent quality shots (which the point of the defenders and midfielders is to prevent) he will concede. The whole quote of 'a good keeper will win you 20 points a season etc.' is that no team can realistically stop every shot on goal so having someone there who can save the shots (a good goalkeeper) rather than someone who can save 50% is obviously going to win you points. That whole point doesn't contradict what shilts has said.

There are a few things missing in this "theory" argument.
What about the opposition? If they are doing their job, or a better job, or the gulf in class between the two teams, or the fact that their outfield has a better game plan.
Football is a team game and if everybody does their job, that is all twenty two of them, then we have stalemate UNLESS one of the teams is better at it, more technically gifted, backed by a passionate crowd ( commonly known as the twelfth man), have better players, make less mistakes, even just plain luckier (known as the rub of the green). Then there are the officials, yes the dreaded officials (no explanation needed).

There is theory and there is reality.
Personally I prefer reality.
Somebody who has been to all the games said to me "Killip has been our best performer so far this season" I haven't seen any of the games. So I thought I'd ask the question.
No one has actually come out and said that they agree, or even disagree. Instead we've had theory, waffle, anything but a straight answer.
Is that because Killip is tagged with the label "liability" and therefore the only way he can be described as the best performer so far this season is to turn to the "theory" ( I thought I'd join in) that if he is the man of the moment then the rest must be shite. Notwithstanding the fact that the other teams could have made them look shite (especially the Blackburn lads).
Never mind.
As a matter of interest does anybody have any opinion as to who else can be a candidate for the best performer so far.

Killip has been (in my eyes) one of the best players so far this season. He's often derided by people as flapper, but I think he has some very good qualities (along with some not so good) but that's what you get at our level! I'm hoping in a month or so's time that the focus is less on him as the defence as a whole will gel and start to turn the theory into reality.
I think Umerah should also get a mention as he's been a rare bright spark despite not scoring. I know for a fact some Blackburn fans were impressed with him on wednesday after he came on.

Killip has always been a decent shot stopper and usually uses the ball well. that seems the important part of the modern goalkeeper more than in the old days where they were required to dominate their areas and only punch the ball in extreame circumstances and were wanted to catch the thing. wish i was born 60 years later.

People go on about 20 goal a season strikers and clubs pay extraordinary sums and wages to get them in but if we are going to have theoretical comparisons, or even realistic comparisons then every time a team has a shot on target which is stopped by the keeper then a goal has been prevented. If a goalie makes an average of two saves a match he is heading towards preventing 100 goals, if not more. Yes some stops are easy but so are a striker's tap ins or penalties.
This was Cloughie's argument when supporting their status.
Shankly said you build a team starting with it's backbone of Goalie, centre half, centre forward.
Yes I know times have changed but the principles such as the team that scores the most goals usually wins haven't changed.
Some people are saying that the defenders need to be able to trust the goalie but the defences we have put out so far have very little or no experience of playing in front of Killip, so they can't help being impressed with what they've seen so far. Maybe this goalkeeping coach is getting through or maybe Killip is getting older and wiser. Whatever it is I hope it continues.
The woes of the rest of the team are of a different nature. Fitness, experience of each other, game time only comes with time.

pesh..."Killip has been (in my eyes) one of the best players so far this season."

...after 2 league games only a complete buffoon would make a statement like that..3 years of flapper show not only that he is bang average at best but also that he has serious fundamental flaws in his game...this season over 46 games will be no different...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol-BR3WR-dc ... from 0.19... 0.57 ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu-lN53okKo.... how to parry ..the right way

pesh.."I know for a fact some Blackburn fans were impressed with him on wednesday after he came on."

...yeah?...wow...

pesh...""I think you've all jumped on what is a pretty fair comment. Shilts hasn't said, in theory, no one needs goalkeepers"

..no ..but what he has said is that "in theory" if flapper was our best player that means other players weren't "doing their jobs" and that "in theory a goalkeeper should never touch the ball"..a 5 year old could work out that's just plain daft..to state the bleedin obvious all goals or attempts at goals are not the result of mistakes by outfield players..

https://twitter.com/BarrowAFC/status/14 ... 6798461965

Some Top notch pundits on here.

Lineker n Shearers jobs could be in jeopardy.

I have put shilts name forward.
In theory that should never have been a corner.
But he stuck a foot out and stopped the cross.
Yes but in stopping the cross he gave them a free cross.
So what should he have done.
In theory or practise?
Err... you choose.
I'm not choosing, it was you who said it.
Ah but I only said it in theory.
So what would you have said in practise.
I don't do practise only theory.
Sorry forgot about that. What's happening now
It appears the ball has burst.
Oh, so it has, what are they doing about it.
Well in theory they should replace it.

You’re right but I was answering a question from Derwent. He didn’t say who do you think is the best player across the whole season but who’s been the best so far.

You’re right some goals there’s nothing players can do anything about. John Rooneys however despite it being a great strike it came about because of a poor touch gave the ball away and allowed a Barrow player to break therefore a mistake. Better example next time

pesh.."because of a poor touch gave the ball away and allowed a Barrow player to break therefore a mistake. Better example next time"

...only one mistake directly responsible for that goal..and it wasn't made by sterry....

..."in theory a goalkeeper should never touch the ball"....theory out the window?.....ron...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NeRoSFZWbs

Thank you Mr Krampesh.

At least one other person reading this thread understands the point I'm making.

Some of the other responses that prattle on about being unrealistic etc have utterly missed the point and I know now that I'd be fighting a losing battle trying to explain myself so I won't waste my breath.

I am, though, a bit stunned at how those who have missed the point have written War and Peace to counter a post that they've misunderstood, what a waste of time

In fairness mr shilts saying "in theory the goalie should never touch the ball" is actually a waste of breath.

How many times will all the goalies playing today actually touch the ball from a pass to them by members of their own team??? So are you suggesting that passing between the goalie and fellow defenders should be outlawed or even neglected. It's something that happens more and more in modern football.
The whole concept is ludicrous and best forgotten.
Theories and theorisers are to be taken with a pinch of salt as they are looking for perfection and whilst humans are involved it will never happen. Good concept though it is.
The only Utopia was a figment of Sir Thomas More's imagination and it still is to this day.
A nice concept but like a lot more concepts they get to the bus stop but never get on.

My complaints about Killip is that he doesen't seem to command his area and is hesitant going for the ball.

Most people would agree with that. Surely he must know that himself.

Flapper Killip strikes again, totally at fault for Northamptons 2nd goal. Doh !

Flapper Killip strikes again, totally at fault for Northamptons 2nd goal. Doh !

Such a bad goal to give away I posted twice

Derwent - has made some top class saves - of course he has he’s a professional goal keeper he wouldn’t play in goal if he couldn’t. Problem is the ones he should have saved.
I do agree with Accrington that it’s a different game today with packed goalmouths and players surrounding goalkeepers keeping them stuck on the line.

You're right of course. Today he apparently made a mistake for the Cobblers second goal.
Were you there and if so what was all the hoo hah about. According to the commentary the referee gave a foul then changed his mind. What was your take on it.

Not there. Couldn’t get on the fire stick either. Anyone else have problems?

The Mail seemed to indicate the hoo hah was about whether or not Lacey should have got a red card for handling the ball on the line to prevent the goal. In the end he was booked. If he had handled the ball on the line then surely that is a red card not a yellow. Maybe he claimed he only handled the ball because he was pushed(fouled) but if he was fouled the goal should have been disallowed. Dunno, just trying to work it out from what the Mail said.

Ben dropped a cross he should have punched. The referee who was dire give the goal but a couple of Nothampton players wanted murrey sending off as well because he handled the first shot on the line before the rebound went in. So most players celebrated scoring but two argued with the referee who went on to book one and then booked murrey for the handball. The delay was only to do with these two clowns wanting more than the goal.

I feel we made a mistake not having another full time keeper, you need competition.

No

Very selective quoting Mr Freaky. Giving the impression I was suggesting he was our best performer when in fact I was asking the question is he our best performer.

derwent.."Some of his saves have been top drawer"

..2022...a few of this years "flappers bottom drawer howlers" ...will be some collection come christmas unless something changes....a loaned keeper before the end of the month is a must...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv77GKCY08g ...from 01.16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wb8rr5mZ84 ..from 0.42

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpy32E4Lzgk ..from 01.46

Well he really gave us a classic Killip performance today. A great double save where he was then let down by the defence for their first and then coming off his line and making the wrong decision for their second.
If you wanted to be extremely positive him coming off his line is an improvement just a shame he didn’t punch it

His positioning and anticipation going for a crossed ball always seems to be misjudged and he falls short making it harder for himself. It’s a case of learning to get in the right spot to make his own job easier.

think he should be allowed this one error after being decent in previous games. its a case of his past record and us seeing more of him than other keepers who will have made errors yesterday and in other games throughout the season. there are better than him outhere but there also is in most if not all other positions in the side.

So Gentlemen the conclusion is that he is still Mr Flapper and, unless we see a favourable improvement in dealing with crosses and the command of his six yard box, we would rather have someone else in there.
That's fair enough.
I think my question has been answered although, at times, it felt like pulling teeth. I'll let you all get your breath back before I ask another one.