Government grants have now become loans according to Ollie Bayliss on Twitter.

The goalposts have been moved significantly. Can only see a curtailment of this year, especially considering 0 testing in place.

Have read his thread but hopefully there is a rabbit away.
DCMS's own announcement in October quite clearly calls it funding not a loan and makes a big deal :
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/10-m ... -secretary
"Oliver Dowden, Culture Secretary, said:

I know from a brilliant club in my area that National League football clubs are the beating heart of their communities and too precious to lose. This £10 million fund will provide a bridge to help clubs survive this immediate crisis whilst we work together on the safe return of fans.

I’m very grateful to National Lottery players for getting help to these community clubs so quickly.

Nigel Railton, Chief Executive of National Lottery operator Camelot, said:

The National Lottery has been making a huge difference to communities across the country for the past 26 years, so we’re delighted to be working with the National League and FA to protect these essential clubs and help them to continue the vital work they carry out in their local communities.

Millions of National Lottery players love football, so our partnership will also see them receive a range of great benefits. It’s our way of saying thank you to our players, who make a difference every time they buy a ticket."

If the government really is trying to wriggle out of this the National League should take them to court - it's plain as day from this statement that a grant not loan was intended.

The above was paid but only covered to the end of December. It’s the second stage of funding. NL clubs meeting on Wednesday

Nothing can go on forever. In the grand scheme of things National League football is nothing, especially when compared to the poor having their benefits cut. Heart of their communities? give me a break , even Pools who are one of the bigger clubs in the league, you are only talking about 3000 people out of a population of 100,000. This season can end tomorrow for me, its not that important. Its more important that football and the government get their houses in order, so that next season can go ahead without the chaos we have to witness and endure this season, with every indication things will only get worse.

The chaos this season and last has been caused 100% by the Covid pandemic and the lockdowns that have been necessary. That's not to say there aren't big problems with football's governance model and club finances, but they were just as bad in 2018 and 2019 and didn't bring whole seasons to an abrupt halt. If mass vaccination works we get the crowds back. Probably not at all this season as the talk is July-September to get most of the adult population vaccinated, but next.

More information here
https://theathletic.com/news/national-l ... 1YdVJt55wM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55710617

Thanks for clarifying - I was ready for my bed when I started reading the thread last night! Sounds like tomorrow really could be the end of the line for this season unless the government signals a change of heart.

Sounds as if as a minimum a pause in the NL season is on the cards, with no guarantees that it will ever restart.

It looks certain that the NLN and NLS will vote to cancel the season, with possibly a majority of the NL clubs wanting to carry on - there's still at least 16 clubs with a chance of getting back to the EFL via the play offs! Not to mention that if the NLN and NLS void their seasons there couldn't be any relegation.

I wonder if income from streaming will play any role in the decision? How much clubs are making seems to be a very closely guarded secret, but one of the comments on the Bayliss thread is from a Curzon Ashton FC says they are 'only' getting about 200 subscribers to home games - their average home gate before the pandemic was less than 400. https://fanbanter.co.uk/national-league ... %20average.

On that basis Pools probably have thousands of fans streaming their games, home and away. Not much benefit for home games because season ticket holders stream for free, but a decent windfall for the likes of Woking. Same goes for Notts County, Stockport etc. fans streaming away games.

[quote="horden"]Nothing can go on forever. In the grand scheme of things National League football is nothing, especially when compared to the poor having their benefits cut. Heart of their communities? give me a break , even Pools who are one of the bigger clubs in the league, you are only talking about 3000 people out of a population of 100,000.
whilst i never class a towns football team as this heart of the community clap trap the vic is the only place in the town where you could ever get 3,000 plus together on a saturday afternoon or tuesday night. it might not mean much in comparison to benefit cuts but still pools are the most important part of the towns leisure industry.

there must be more than me and not just exiles who have seen more pools games this season especially the aways as they have ever seen in the past. the national league need to complete this season even if it has to go on into say next september. 2 uncompleted seasons just makes the whole thing totally pointless for everyone concerned.

Go into September? and if problems arise with the vaccine or a new strain of the virus surfaces, risk fookin up another season?

A line has to be drawn, and plans put in place to make sure next season runs smoothly. IMO that can only happen if the season starts in the traditional matter, a pre season , with ideally an August start date.

The football authorities will do what they see fit regardless of what I say so I am not getting wound up about it. There are more important problems at the moment.

Agree there are more important matters atm than NL football but don't think for a minute that a football team in a town like Hartlepool doesn't just interest the people who attend games, there's probably just as many 'sleeping' fans who for whatever reason (work, old age, lack of money, divided loyalties) can't attend but still have a huge interest in the clubs welfare/performance.

For example I have a friend who attended games up until last season with his father who is now in his nineties and his brother who no longer go but the first thing we talk about when we see each other is the football club, and they are still aware of what is happening both on and off the pitch. I have many other friends and relations who follow the clubs fortunes closely but have never stepped foot inside the Vic.

I'm hoping the season will continue as I would like to think that the money the owners would have spent on the everyday running of the club so far this season has been off-set by the grants received.

New variants of the virus are all over the place anyway and so this is life now. Within a few months the most vulnerable are vaccinated and able to get on with their normal activities. The rest of us are in line and by June the majority of folks are out of the risk of death or hospitalization.

I thought the whole point of keeping 'elite' sports going was to provide a morale boost to the country and provide both normality and something on TV that is not a repeat. I've certainly taken the opportunity to see more Pools games than previously - just not in person (Woking aside - wish I'd missed that one!). Given the relatively tiny amount that this will cost to finish the season I hope that grant funding is put in place. The majority of players would have been on furlough at 80% salary anyway and hence most wage costs would be covered by the taxpayer. What would be the amount needed to pay for non playing costs on this basis - ground fees, fixed asset costs etc. I do hope that the League are putting forward arguments like the above to get us to a point in (self interest) continuing.

The hope was initially, when money was made available . was that clubs at some point would eventually have crowds back inside the grounds, now that looks unlikely , I fear the government will act accordingly.

The amount of money sloshing about football prohibits any free dosh to football clubs and rightly so. The support should come from the hundreds of millions in the FA’s coffers not government funds.

[quote="Mr Irrelevant"]The amount of money sloshing about football prohibits any free dosh to football clubs and rightly so. The support should come from the hundreds of millions in the FA’s coffers not government funds.[/quote

Hit the nail right on the head there, Mr I.

Sweet FA from the FA.

That or the FA should stop charging outrageous fees for refs, bookings and suspensions.

the national FA alongside the County FA,s are big growth industries in this country. ask fans of bury and macclesfield if you expect any help from this quarter. even at county level what happens to all the money they got from players cautions and sending offs every saturday and sunday. they call the cautions paid by players an administration fee. is that newspeak for building new premises and/or refurbs with new positions of work to do non jobs.

Agree with both Mr I and Accrington here. The amount of non jobs and extravagance in football is staggering.

Looks as if the season will go on: https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/sport/f ... l-19665858

Clubs have vote on their preference by Friday but it sounds as if the majority will agree with Chester FC's stated position. Meantime this Saturday's games will definitely go ahead.

The fly in the ointment is that some clubs don't trust the NL Board to share out the money fairly. The first time around they managed to award Boreham Wood the same grant as Notts County, which equated to Boreham Wood getting £102 per fan compared with County getting £18 per fan based on attendances last season! The NL Chief Exec has now been moved on, maybe a sign that they've learned a lesson.

Well Darlo aren't keen on anything other than a grant and proper covid testing for all players and staff.

https://darlingtonfc.co.uk/news/winter- ... -statement

To an extent clubs are going to vote according to how they are doing in their leagues. Even taking their postponed games into account, Darlo don't look to have much to play for this season.

I'm sure every club would prefer the government to continue to fund the Winter Survival Package but that doesn't seem to be on the table at the minute. It would be a big risk to suspend the season in hopes that will provide enough leverage to persuade the government to change it's mind. Just as likely to introduce the risk of this season being voided and clubs going under waiting - with no income - for season 21/22 to start.

As for Covid testing for all clubs in the National Leagues - should have been in place months ago but who's going to pay for it? Not the PFA - all players on full time contracts at clubs in the Prem, WSL and EFL are signed up but not the NLs. The more you look at it the more it's obvious that NL, NLN and NLS exist in a sort of no-man's land between the grass roots and 'real' pro football.

This is what happens when the money men attempt to market the National League as the unofficial EFL league division 5, instead of Football League and non league as it always used to be. Carlisle are Football league, we are non league, but this over exposure of the National League fuelled by promotion ( which was a good thing when only one team went up ) but already is now 2 team, one automatically and one via the play offs, and no doubt in future more will increase further.

I don’t know how you’ve reached your conclusion, what is Chester’s position and how do you know most clubs will agree with it.

Also, it seems like the “grants” dished out with borrowed money by the league will be repayable and with interest.

He doesn't know for sure, maybe that's why he used the words SOUNDS AS IF. Just as you use the words IT SEEMS LIKE.

At what date precisely did message boards become like this? everyone being arsey with each other, its people expressing opinions, largely based on what they have read, seen or heard , nothing concrete, it may be right it may be total bollocks, who cares? is it really a problem? if people don't like it don't participate. This is Chesters stated position by the way Infidel

https://www.chesterfc.com/2021/01/20/cl ... n-2020-21/

Its because hes a darloid

I wasn’t being “arsey” - nothing in my post was “arsey” - I was just asking a question so calm down.

I thought the news report I put up was clear enough: "Chester chairman Andrew Morris believes most clubs at the meeting for the National League North were in favour of the league taking the loan and paying the money to its clubs as grants, although this could affect the amount of money the National League is able to distribute to clubs in the future."

He also said: "If we decide to suspend the season then what are the consequences? Yes we can claim furlough for the players, but are we then ever going to finish the season and what about people’s season tickets and also sponsors, not just at our club but the wider league sponsors? Does that then have a consequence for repaying money?"

The answer to his own rhetorical question is yes of course it does. All 67 clubs in the National Leagues are in a fix not of their own making. I think most will come to the conclusion that the least worst option is to play on with Option 2 - certainly in the National League when two thirds of the clubs are still in with a realistic chance of making the EFL play offs.

So when I read that statement I didn't pick up a positive vibe, my opinion is that this matter is far from sorted.

The second option is a loan under a different name. It's money that will have to be paid back but it will be deducted from the wage packet each year, however the end result is exactly the same, less money. Also I've read that there will be interest added as well!

So clubs will in effect have to borrow money to keep playing in front of no fans. This is ridiculous as clubs like Darlington and Hartlepool are always paddling upstream, they always have problems with not enough money, so is it a good idea to take on another loan?

It maybe won't bother Singh? But he has previously in taking out loans then walking away, so watch out.

And to Brasil Brush 'darloid' is a proper name and should have a capital D.

my main worry is whatever decision is actually made that if all 67 teams vote those in the northern and southern sections may vote a different way than the 23 in our league. in that case we,ll have to go down their line and not the line we want. each league should vote on their league and no one elses. its hard to compare clubs like farsley celtic and blyth to teams like pools and notts county.

Under Option 2 the National League itself is taking on the loan, not the individual clubs (2% interest a year payable over 10 years, wish I could buy a new car on those terms). The NL has other revenues, for instance for naming rights and with BT Sport - they have just renewed their TV deal for the next 3 seasons - so can afford to take on the loan and have a vested interest in keeping the show on the road to keep the broadcaster happy. Yes, it means reducing NL payments to clubs starting next season, but the clubs will have gate receipts back - unless mass vaccination doesn't work against Covid, in which case we're all screwed.

As Mr. Accrington says, there will be a massive row if NL clubs want to play on and the NLS and NLN don't.

I take on board your comments but my main point is that clubs will have to pay back the money one way or another. Either through payments to the Gov as a loan agreement or by means of losing future income from the league. A figure of 15K per annum has been mentioned, over 10 years.

Loan repayments per annum or loss of income per annum, it all adds up to the same thing.

And yes, gate receipts will be back next season but yearly income will be down before a ball is kicked.

Under option 2 the clubs, all clubs will sign up to an agreement to lose money until the borrowed money plus interest is paid back to the league. It's no different to option 1 and is clearly a bad, short sighted move.

I think that both options 1 and 2 are a way of making the clubs pay for the actions of the dodgy government and an incompetent league.

IF we win our games in hand we would be near the top of the league.
We are also in the last 16 of the trophy.
Hardly nothing to play for.

You've got to admit that on current form it's a big if, but anything can happen in football.

Hence the bold IF
However the trophy is a different matter, we have a winnable tie in the next round meaning the club will benefit by several thousands of pounds if we win it.

Havant and Waterlooville and Slough Town in the NLS now refusing to play their games on Saturday. I mean, why wait for the votes to be counted when you can just do your own thing? Are they owned by Donald Trump?

Most Sunday leagues are run better than this.

Slough Town, from what I can tell, didn't even want the season to begin. I respect clubs who genuinely can't afford to play, but Slough's long winded holier than thou statement can piss off.

Relegate both.

Apologies, I wasn't having a go at you Infidel, though I can see why you would think that, as I hijacked your post, It was just a general observation of the aggression that seems to be around at the moment, lockdown cabin fever probably driving some people stir crazy

Raj has gone for Option 2 - no surprise there. Let's hope a majority agree with him.

https://www.hartlepoolunited.co.uk/club ... 21-season/

Okay - no problem.

A statement from The National League Board.
Following the review of the feedback from Clubs in connection to the recent Clubs meeting, a Board meeting this morning decided to halt the participation in the North/South Divisions for a two-week period, effective immediately.

As a result, tomorrow's games are formally postponed.
https://www.thenationalleague.org.uk/na ... to-n-65013

A rift between the National League and the North/South Divisions has been on the cards since this blew up. Most clubs in the NL are full-time professional, most in the other 2 are part time. Add to that the deal with BT Sport and the requirement for NL games to be played to fulfil the terms of the deal. Plus, as I've said before, most clubs in the NL have a vested interest in playing on because they're still in with a chance of promotion to the EFL via the play offs.

I think a lot of clubs in the NL itself COULD survive having a fully BCD season in the same way someone could survive 2 days without eating.

The NL/N and S is a different matter. Less sugar daddies (especially in the north) and clubs been mainly ran on matchday income and other fan involvement, our local rivals Darlington and Gateshead been good examples of that.

They should of let fans in during that brief period from August to October, they didn't, and now they're facing a wasted season or club destroying loans. You could of probably fitted about 4,000 people socially distanced into the darlington arena and a similar number at Gateshead. France did it, so why couldn't we?

And the blame lies solely on the National League and the DCMS.

Also I'm still trying to figure out why clubs are playing trophy and vase games when last seasons havent even finished yet

been saying this all along. its not as if all fans are actually bothered about this competition from day one nowadays.

National League chiefs are due to speak with clubs this week on a vote that could scrap the rest of this season.

The government has told the league that £11m to cover expenses from January to March will be loans not grants.

An overwhelming majority of the 66 clubs say they will not accept loans.

The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport is also to announce that non-league clubs in steps three to six, below National League level, will have £10m in grants available.

This will benefit around 850 clubs, none of who have played in two months.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55818377

Looks like season over then!

Not necessarily. This is the latest DCMS update:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/gove ... gue-system

In theory, all the clubs in the NL, NLN and NLS can apply for grants if they don't think they can afford a loan.

'On Step 1 and 2 National League funding, Sports Minister Nigel Huddleston added:

“With precious public money, we are providing financial support to the National League Steps 1 and 2 in the form of loans. However if clubs at those levels can demonstrate it needs grant funding urgently to survive, we will ensure that option is available. We will not let clubs go to the wall. Applications will be assessed by the independent Board, through the same rigorous process that we apply to other sports.”'

There's no indication of how long it will take DCMS to assess individual applications for loans (probably from all 67 clubs). If the season stops it at least means no clubs will be going out of business. You'd think if they had two brain cells to rub together DCMS and the National League would find a way for our division to continue playing, as the majority of the sides in it want to do.