[quote="Watching from afar"]Whether I talk crap or not as you put it is irrelevant. I give my view so its entirley valid. I suggest you read whats written more carefully and respond to that rather what you want it to say.

For example:

I say I want a hung parliament, you interpret that as I want a Labour Majority. And have done so page after page.[/quote.

I was going to ignore the hung parliament bit but seeing as you insist on it being discussed here goes.
You want a hung parliament to stop the tories.
Since 2010 we have had a hung parliament in all but two years. That didn't stop the tories from carrying out their agenda one little bit. They were propped up first by the lib dems ( the party which you said you voted for) and then by the DUP( which cost the country a huge bribe).
So were you voting for a continuation of austerity, food banks, no money for the NHS, schools etc. because for seven out the nine years that's what we got from a hung parliament????
Take your time.
I'll be courteous and refrain from putting any spin on that

It's me Tree, my next door neighbour isn't very well, bless him.

Who has got a blue rinse? Who has got a conservative club?
Once again you are resorting to lies.
Silly bugger.
I'm beginning to think Valiant is another one of your aliases, you both speak with forked tongues.

So not only am I to blame for corbyn and this tory victory I am also to blame for the last 9 years of austerity? I think you are insane.

Don't forget the weather and the floods.

No that was God. He is to blame for all that pain and suffering.

Not sour grapes at all, it was always going to be an uphill battle, regardless of who was in charge. Do you honestly think Labour would've won with Owen Smith at the helm?. As a proper Socialist I accept the result and take defeat on the chin. I will get up again though and defeat will not compromise my beliefs , unlike some, who apparently change with the wind.

I accept without power you cant change anything, so we need power, I get that and always have. My concern with a so called as you put it, electable Labour party, it that we have two versions of basically the same thing, like the Republicans and Democrats in America , granted the democrats ( their version of your Labour ) wouldn't take a big stick to the poor, but neither would they radically address the things that need addressing , such as climate change, transport , housing , workers rights etc etc. This is why I will and hope Labour does the same, keep on the leftfield path , because the choice really is between gaining power or doing what's right, that's the dilemma the Labour party faces. I will accept a little compromise in order to appease some voters in the hope of gaining power, but as long as we stick to broadly the same path. I honestly only think Corbyns manifesto came across as so radical, because we have fell so far behind on many things, thanks to 40 years of Thatcherism and Bliar neo- liberalism and rampant Capitalism. I accept Capitalism is probably here to stay, but it needs reigning in, its this rampant Capitalism that is destroying not only our once great country but the world.

The icing on the cake for the tories and Bliarites, would've been Corbyn resigning, he didn't and they are fuming. Its not Corbyn they hate but what he represents. They want to blast Socialism out of the water for good. Why would this be? surely in a democracy its healthy to have a range of views. The next left wing leader of Labour will incur the same wrath, why? using a bit of reverse psychology , why the obsession? why worry about an ideology so out of kilter with what people actually want?. The only conclusion I can draw is that they must be shit scared of it, scared that it would/could work, scared that if it wasn't for the media , lies and character assasination , people might actually awake from their slumber, scared that a millionaire might lose 20k a year of their wealth , whilst ordinary people went from living in poverty to just being poor.

I agree entirely with this except by bringing in new far left leader Labour will never get power. This election has shown just how gullible if not stupid they electorate is. Give them easy slogans to understand and promises wealth and prosperity and they will believe it.

Messages like spreading the wealth and caring for all are just not sexy enough for the new world of selfish over 40s.

I agree , we need to find ( it pains me to say this ) a happy medium in order to gain power, but we need radical change in this country to save it, it may already be too late. Its no longer good enough just to elect a Labour Gov that's only virtue is that it isn't the tories. Republicans or Democrats, one fooks the ordinary person over in the morning the other in the afternoon so to speak. A headline I saw on the news yesterday, GOVERNMENT TO LOOK AT ZERO EMISSIONS TARGET BY 2050, that is pure bullshit, and probably wont even happen by then, even though 2050 is far too late. Reducing zero admissions affects Capitalism, the capitalists who build roads, airports cars etc, there is no desire for them to tackle the problem, other than if their is no world then they cant build and make money off anything, but they will take a risk on that either not happening or not happening for awhile anyway.

I totally respect your stand point Mr Horden and in a great many respects we sing from the same hymn sheet. We both want the same results but disagree on the method of achieving those results.
The only thing the country will accept as an alternative to tory is a more centrist type of approach. A sort of middle ground between the far right and the far left. They won't venture too left of centre but are happy to venture right of centre.
Until that attitude changes, if it ever does, we have to take smaller steps.
The only alternative to tory is labour but if labour refuse to budge then there is no alternative, leaving us as a one party nation. And that is bloody dangerous.
We need to get labour elected then slowly move forward with acceptable, achievable policies that people are comfortable with, like Blair was doing until the banking crisis and try and persuade the capitalists to come onside and pay a bit more. Dowsing them with freezing water won't work. We need to work in partnership with them to get more of the loaf, so to speak.
We three are seriously considering returning to labour membership in the new year when the dust settles. We are trying to persuade others who have ditched labour to follow suit in order to fight this lurch to the left and get labour electable again because that is the only way to beat the tories.
I know that this plan won't sit easy with you but, if we are to achieve anything anywhere nearer to getting power, we all have to compromise.
That's my thoughts anyway.

I don't think there is any doubt about who is responsible for austerity but my point all along has been in order to stop it and stop the party who created it we have to get the only party that has the remotest chance of achieving that, electable.
I really don't know why people can't see that.
The labour party have lurched to the left. People don't like that to the point that they are actually frightened of it. They are now just a protest group of very little consequence and very little support. Meanwhile the tory party have lurched farther to the right, simply because the tory party are weighing in on labour's self destruction.
I don't know why people can't see that either.
Here am I highlighting the problem and offering a possible solution and for that I get accused of promoting the tory cause, being a tory or even a fascist. It's unbelievable.
The only reason I carry on is because I care about curbing the tories and making labour electable and I am prepared to accept all sorts of abuse to achieve that. i don't care about me but I do care about you.
I am on your side man, you just can't see it but I do get the impression from your last post it is becoming a bit clearer.
In order to begin to solve a problem you first have to understand what the problem is and where it's coming from.
This country has lots of problems and we all know where they have come from and the only people with half a chance of starting to solve those problems have pressed the self destruct button, which is why I lay the blame firmly at their door because they are destroying the only chance we have of stopping the tories.
Some day people will wake up and see this and THEN the problem will have been identified and THEN and ONLY THEN we will start making progress.
Merry Christmas!!!!!

Fact is no one posting on here is going to change their views in fact some are not waiting for Johnson to fail but wishing him to fail and even if he is a success they will still not give him credit.
I still hark back to him being mayor of London running the biggest economy apart from parliament. London has only three non labour constituencies out of about thirty most of whom I believe to be hard left yet they voted for Johnson not only that they voted for him a second time. Can someone explain why they did this if is as useless as some on here try to make out?

Can we stop with this privatisation nonsense. Any willing provider was brought in during a Labour Government in 2009 and privatisation works really well for some parts of the NHS. For example instead of having 5 kitchens at 5 hospitals all doing the same thing with massive overheads, why not get one offsite to do the same job to the same standard with fewer overheads to deliver the same product and quality at a cheaper cost so more money can go into front line. Yes, some privatisation has had the wrong outcomes on it so has lead to worse care but not all privatisation does, but that doesn't fit the narrative and the mantra that all public service and NHS is good and all privatisation is evil. Of course programmes like this cherry pick the bad examples to make a point then fire up those who already believe it. It's incredibly bias and misses half of the argument because that doesn't suit the point, panorama and dispatches all the the same. Take programmes like this with a pinch of salt and stop politicising a point that actually both parties are guilty of. The NHS needs more investment, but it also needs some reform as it doesn't work very well in parts and that investment isn't very efficient if invested in those bits. It's not a sacred cow that however how sick we can't touch and the goal should be the best care for patients...

I don't think the conservatives will deliver 40 new hospitals and the 50,000 nurses but at least they campaigned on that rather than saying elect the other guys and it'll all be sold off to America...which it won't and spending half my time in the US i can tell you they have their own problems

I KNOW they wont deliver 40 new hospitals. Because they cant. They cant without the cash and without the firms to build them.

As for privatisation. When are we going to get off this train that everything has a price? So you can 5 hospitals sharing one kitchen. Great. But isnt it better to employ more local people in those local hospitals. It doesnt always have to be about cuts and savings. Not everything has to wrapped with a corporate mentality.

How much has actually been saved by the kitchen exercise? Wouldnt it have been better to create more jobs locally to help spread a little wealth, rather than a hospital trust increasing its profit margin to serve its share holders?

Its false economy.

and great its more efficient. So what? Whats more efficient than employing hundreds of local people in each hospital?

Even in 2019 with millions destitute, thousands living on the streets and a massive rise in food banks it still seems Greed is good.

Sometimes with a finite budget, you have to make cuts to ensure that you can put money into the right things. Equally i was talking more about overheads such as space, packaging, washing and cleaning, energy use etc rather than people as you still need mostly the same amount to make and deliver the product at the location. I get the argument that investing in the economy stimulates more growth everywhere, but sometimes you just don't have the money to afford that luxury so sensible middle ground has to be met, you can't just borrow and borrow it has to be paid back at some point and sometimes there is no return on investment. For example, foreign aid, everyone complains about but we get at least 3 times that money back in business deals and economy stimulation that it generates. But, in the NHS, I'd rather we put the money into direct healthcare and nurses etc than wasting it on overheads that just aren't needed. Not all efficiencies are about people, sometimes they can be other costs too

Still no one telling why labour London kept voting for Boris to be mayor.

You are talking like its a PLC environment. And OK thats probably what it is now. But it shouldnt.

Why was it OK 30 years ago to have kitchens in each hospital and cleaners employed by the same hospital but not in 2019? Were people more efficient back then? I suspect its being painted as such to suit the argument. The one thing in this country we should feel proud of and protect with all our heart, and treat completely differently to a business is the NHS. You want to create savings then get rid of the majority of middle management not involved in care. And get rid of every single trust.

I am sorry JHumps but you do speak like you have been on too many corporate courses.

Maybe you should go on ilovelondon.com and ask there.

Let it go, let it go
Boris is running the show,
Let it go, let it go

Bored now.

No need to get offensive. It's just a different view to you. How would you like it if i said it sounds like you've never had a job over minimum wage in your life? (I'm sure you have a range of life experience that is valuable by the way). Don't judge people because of their views and sometimes people disagree, but it's important to at least try and understand why people have a different view instead of just saying all you say is crap. Maybe try listening to some examples once in a while rather than just getting personal as they disagree with you

I only said you had been on too many corporate courses. Is that really offensive? And you are right anyway I have never had a job over the minum wage. Too busy protesting at Menwith Hill in my youth and then picketing with the miners. And now its the climate. But to me there is no argument on the NHS. PLC Britain got it hands on it and ruined it. But hey, shareholders got a good dividend so all is OK.

Yes it is offensive, it tries to insinuate that my view, because you view it as corporate, is less valid than yours and it judges my whole argument on that when there is no right to do so. That's what offensive. Just because you believe what you want doesn't mean everyone else is wrong. I'd argue it isn't ruined as we have some of the worst health outcomes in Europe especially in cancer and have done for many many years, but i do believe it should remain mostly in public hands. Just do whatever is best for patients, and i'm happy to be challenged by those who know more, not those who just don't want to listen to anything. Close off your mind and think you can't look at other ways of operating it and you close off an opportunity that could make it better. It could also make it worse but at least it's doing something different and looking at another way

My god WFA is good at picking lost causes. Why not try backing Boris, winner in labour London twice, 4rounds to be party leader and PM then a General Election.

Its amazing what some people will forgive just to win.

Then I apologise. But as soon as you start talking cost savings cuts and return on investments in the NHS then my gander is risen. You only look for cuts and ROI in private businesses looking to make a profit. The only thing that the NHS should be tasked with is patient care. If that costs more then so what. Take the money out of defence for example. Something we no longer need as we will not be attacked.

And I have to say it sounds like you have a vested interest in the privatisation in Part of the NHS. You seem a little too passionate about it.

WFA what I don’t understand is that reading your posts, they are your opinions which I respect, you appear to be an intelligent person, yet you say you have never had a job above minimum wage, is that lack of ambition or just doesn’t want any form of responsibility?

He's the bunker's spokesman for Abbott,Dodds and Thornberry all rolled into one.. My bet is he doesn't wear the trousers at home either.

Life isn't all about money and ambition johnjo. Hence why I am not impressed when you hear about private firms running the NHS. Or trusts as the name they like to hide behind.

Take brexit. I see today its celebrated by the tory hordes as being done. Well what exactly has been done. And more importantly why is it so much the holy grail for so many. It's almost like people think the money tree has just grown in everyones back yard. All I see is that in a forever more accessible world were everything is so much closer the uk decides to isolate itself. Little englanders.

I don’t get it you go on about being on corporate courses yet you have never been above minimum wage. What’ sort of corporate courses for people who have no ambition but to stay on low pay. As far as the money tree goes surely labours manifesto looked as if they too had a money tree.
Will brexit work who knows, will it fail who knows, only time will tell. Let’s be honest some very intelligent people think it will and some think it will fail.

Didnt go to eton either. Or university. And daddy didn't give enough money to get me in. Unlike boris.

It’s obvious that you are jealous of people who are fortunate, so through no fault of their own, to get an excellent education and to use this good fortune.
I’m a Wagga lad born and bred and wished my father could have given me such a start in life.

Ok. You admire such inequality. And I doubt you are alone. It's called the class system and they want to keep it that way.

Jacob Reece mogg on your admire list too?

There are some on the labour side too.

Your posts are absolutely bizarre.

Name one thing that is admirable or relatable about Boris Johnson on any level? He’s a thundercunt.

Just about anyone who’s ever come into contact with him has said he’s an absolutely dreadful human being. A self centered almost pathological liar who has engineered his path to number ten with no regard for consequences of the country or anyone else. He’s the least credible person to ever be Prime Minister of our country he is unfit for public office

Yes we’ll done ‘Boris’ for capitilising on a unique set of circumstances.

We all know that Boris is not the most popular of people and yes he has engineered his way to the top but everybody who get to the top of their professions engineer their way to the top. It’s called ambition there will be politicians of all parties already ambitious and ‘engineering’ there way to the top. Don’t forget all bosses are not liked and at the top you must not be frightened to be ruthless.
No one has still answered my question if Boris is so bad why did the people of labour London vote for him to be mayor and then re-elect him?

got a couple of uncles born and bred in hartlepool from a shipyard working father who both went to univerersity with one becoming a headmaster of a comprehensive school. my old man got a university degree later in life. was engaged to a lass who went to cambridge in the late sixties who had parents who were hairdressers. it can be done if you knuckle down at school but plenty prefer to spout eton and just prepare themselves for second best.

I personally don't know anybody who went to Eton and the only inkling i have of that way of life is Tom Brown's Schooldays and i don't think I would have fancied it, to be honest.
I know people who went to Oxford and they all seem ok to me, although I once interviewed an Oxford graduate and I got the impression he thought the World owed him a living but I have met quite a few people who also think the world owes them a living and none of those went to Oxford.
I can't be arsed with Eton or Oxford and if people want to send their kids there then let them get on with it.
My daughter went to Newcastle Uni.
Everybody should have the opportunity of a good education but they can get that in a lot better places than the likes of Eton.
They don't even dress proper.

Exactly right Phil. They way some people talk about Johnson or boris as they seem to affectionately call him you would think it was 1840s Britain. Bring back upstairs downstairs. And the birch.

When you go to Eton and Oxford you still have to work hard to get qualifications and would you not do the best for your family it’s humane nature. My father was just a steelworker and my mother a school cleaner but they did the best for me and encouraged me to do better than them.
You still fail to answer my question why the people of labour lLondon vote for Boris not once but twice to run their city. Was it because he did a bad job or does it just stick in your throats to give him credit.
By the way there are some labour MPs who come from wealthy back grounds and senior union officials making fortunes.
By the way Phil it’s not affectionate to call someone by their first names. Do you like being called to by your surname.

You know I think some people on this board are like residents of Glasgow or Belfast they just hate other people’s views or beliefs.
Boris Johnson could not help being born into an affluent family and I appreciate that he is not the most likeable man to some people. Yet some on here actually despise the man.
His family got him the best education would you not do that for yours? Look how many on the labour side had private education and what about Blair, Abbott, Harman where did they send their children yes to the best they could give.

Half the country are racist or homophobic in some slight way. Austerity was initially caused by the mess left by the last labour government. Remember the infamous note left for the incoming minister.
To say it caused the deaths of thousands haway get a grip?

What’s the national at the moment, and rising?

What’s the national debt at the moment, and rising?

Johnjo your admiration for johnson is bizarre. Did you know he won a scholarship to go to oxford? I wonder how he "won" that eh? I cant think of a million things to call johnson and none of them would be Boris. I dont refer to racists by their first name.

Oh well that's alright then.

Many many people have been brainwashed. They must have been as the alternative would be quite offensive to them all.