Are you deliberately missing the point?

The complex issue is getting to the root of it and of it and eradicating it. It the solution was so obvious it wouldn’t still be so prevalent in society.

If the issue isn’t complex then what is the straightforward answer?

The straightforward is it is not Footballs problem to solve. Not in the global sense. All football can do is protect the players from the abuse. If that means walking off and abandoning games then fine. It puts the responsibility back on the clubs and the areas where its happening. Extreme action is needed with zero tolerence like I have stated a few times. It wont take many abandoned games and points lost for the thickets to either stay away or keep their idiotic mouths shut.

What we must never forget is that in this thread PJ told people to get off their high horse ......

What is not acceptable is players being racially abused whilst the intelligentsia express how complex the issue is and how difficult it is to solve. The first thing to do is protect the abused with no exceptions.

Breeslaw, we are having a serious but respectful conversation in this thread why are you trying turn into people having a pop at even other. Why post just that? Pathetic.

Do you have all the answers?

I wouldn’t even pretend to on this issue so we all need to get off our high horses, is their even a right answer here?

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ssion=true

As usual Marina Hyde smashes the nail firmly on the head

I am not in any way condoning or excusing what happened against Dover, absolutely abhorrent but I think the media needs to be a little more balanced in their comments. Again, normally although I quite enjoy Brian Reade's columns, I find in the attached link he has ignored the above Villa / Norwich game and highlighted Pools again.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... e-20637079

The big difference between what has happened elsewhere and at Pools is that the game was stopped for 10 minutes, that's probably why it is being mentioned in the same breath as the England game.

Doesn't matter what happened anywhere else, they can mention it because it happened. Their choice.

I have a Belgian acquaintance, I won't say friend, who is an out and out xenophobe, never mind racist. The only reason anyone bothers with him is because it's amusing to demolish his arguments. Like shooting fish in a barrel. Does it stop his being a xenophobe? Of course not. You can dissuade a person fron acting racist by punishing them but you can't take the racism out of them. I'm not even sure you can prevent their ever becoming racist. So yes it's a complex issue. Please stop trying to simplify it.

Gareth Southgate
Clive tyldsley
Brain reade

It’s all your fault


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The same thing that happened at villa happened at Pools the game after Dover!

The villa game wasn't stopped though was it?

What happened at the game after Dover? Or do you mean after the Dover game?

Its only a complex issue in a more global sense. Its not a complex issue for football. Football can only do what it can and thats to have zero tolerence to any racism. It couldnt be simpler. Like a lot of things society tries to make things footballs issue. It isnt. Its a very simple one. Abandon any game where racism is prevelant and punish the club with minus points that have the guilty fans.

For anyone to try and claim otherwise is basically saying black players will have to put up with a certain amount of racism. If that is how its going to play out then the black players should just walk off.

It couldn't be simpler and doesn't want to be simpler.
It's clear that clubs as well as the perpetrators shouldn't go unpunished, but for a lasting effect the game of football needs to integrate with broader anti-racism initiatives, not try to go it alone.
For example where's the public information advertisement that advises what to do if you notice racist behaviour at a match or at any gathering for that matter? "Stamp out racism" is bordering on a cliché. What's needed is "Stamp out racism, here's how."

How does that equate to "black players will have to put up with a certain amount of racism"?

Borislav Mikhailov who got sacked was the keeper who turned up in Italia 90 in a wig after doing all the qualifiers without one. He also signed for Reading after seeing their play off final result and thought they played their home games at Wembley

If the solution was so simple we wouldn't still be dealing with these issues in 2019.

You are also speaking on behalf of black players assuming they think the solution is walking off the pitch. In some extreme circumstances it might be, on occasions like Monday night it probably isn't. You had a pocket of 'people' in the stadium who had planned to cause disruption and defy UEFA, England's players wanted to show unity and defiance in the face of that and stay on the pitch. Are you saying the people on the end of the abuse were wrong in how they reacted? To me it was perfect, strong, dignified not allowing the scum to achieve anything other than hopefully on a knock on the door from the police anytime soon.

As for punishment, again points deductions and the like aren't going to stamp out racism it could increase it in certain parts of the World. It's a dangerous precedent, take a city like Rome or Milan, how can the club be accountable for the actions of every single person that enters the stadium and the agenda they enter it with. It's impossible.

Bulgaria have to and will rightfully face serious consequences for the other night but you can't just cast them adrift either. It's fair to say nations like this are well behind on dealing with racism, if you get to a point were they acknowledge they have a big problem then that's a start. UEFA need to start being proactive on the issue and working with these nations, the current systems and protocols aren't fit for purpose and don't achieve a single thing. Remember Bulgaria were already subject of a partial stadium closure the other night, what is that achieving? Kick it Out do a lot of good work in England with our ongoing problems with racism I'm sure nations like Bulgaria could benefit greatly from the knowledge they have. UEFA need to acknowledge that they are completely failing in this area and need outside input.

Also you can't say society and footballs issues aren't the same thing. That's ridiculous are you suggesting that issues like mental health and homophobia should be dealt with differently because it's football? Society doesn't try and make these footballs issues, they are part of football because hundreds of millions of people play and watch the game all over the World. Society and football go hand in hand so education and knowledge in a lot of areas are required. If football confronts all of these human issues better society benefits and vice versa.

just wonder if there is any racist stuff going on in south american internationals or the african cup of nations. its hard to imagine it not happening or is it just a european thing nowadays.

Sorry PJ but I stand by my previous comments. I wasnt claiming to be speaking on behalf of black players but I have listened and read the comments from many of the experts on this issue - current and former black players. Clearly the players on Monday didnt want to leave the field but sometimes there are bigger issues that need to be addressed. Kick it out and all of the campaigns are failing because the only people they can engage with are the people that would never be racist anyway.

I have no idea what you referring to in your last paragraph. I was merely stating that its not footballs responsibility to sort out those issues as they are too complex for a sporting body to sort out. Its not a black footballers responsibilty to sort out racism on the terraces. He is the victim. Racists are racists all the time not just for 90 minutes on a saturday afternoon.

As usual some are trying to make this more than it is. We are not here to sort out societys scumbags. If the government and police cant sort them and make racism go away you cant expect football to sort it. Football can only deal with it. And that means banning the culprits and blaming the clubs that allow them in.

Daft comparison time. I'm abused at work, so I complain to my manager. Would it be acceptable if my manager said, 'just suck it up, do your job even better than before; that'll shut them up'?

No need to be apologetic as I said previously I don't think theirs a right or wrong answer. but with respect you can't stand by your previous comments with that much conviction as you were saying only few posts ago that this isn't a complex issue.

I don't think kick it out are failing they are confronting something that will probably never fully go away, but we have made massive strides in our country. I remember when I first started going to Pools and well into the early nineties racism still being horrific at our games. Chants like 'shoot that n****r' were still regularly directed at opposition players.

People get punished for racist behaviour now, clubs get punished but it's got go beyond that surely it can't just stop at that whether it's footballs issue or not the game still has responsibilities. I'm not sure who and how anyone is trying to make more of this than it is either?

Actually we had made huge strides but there again that depends on the who you are refering to. We if thats how you want to portray us have gone backwards over the last few years, as seen by what happened at pools the other week. You cannot claim huge strides have been made any more. Racists will always be racists. I am not going to spend one minute of my life trying to educate this pondlife. I just want to make sure they are not allowed within a hundred mile of any event I attend.

As for saying its a complex issue. I said its not complex for football to sort. Its a complex issue for society or at least its being portrayed as one.

[quote="Watching from afar"]. Racists will always be racists. I am not going to spend one minute of my life trying to educate this pondlife. I just want to make sure they are not allowed within a hundred mile of any event I attend.


thing is you will not know if the person who sits or stands next to you is a racist or not. not all of em will shout pathetic insults at black players at a football match. they will not be followers of tommy robinson or EDL members either. they will always be racist in their ideas and with all animals push em in a corner then trouble could really arise.

The incident at Pools wouldn't have been any sort of issue in the late eighties, the Dover player wouldn't have dared react as it would have been more than one bloke. Black players used to get applause for picking up bananas and eating them a that were being thrown at them as it was really funny, it was horrific. Thankfully We have made big strides in that regard it's an undeniable fact it's not a claim. These people haven't gone away though.

Also racists might always be racists, but they haven't always been racist. Nobody is born that way, this is where education comes in, it's not about educating as you put it well 'pondlife' its getting there before such views are implanted then you have half a chance.

wish i could come out with the correct answer to this subject as if i did i would be up for a Nobel Prize. softly softly will not work neither will the big stick. both my parents could have been called racists in there time but i never followed their views on this. schools may try but then loads of kids really hate school so anything said there could have an opposite effect. anyone who thinks they have the answer get on with it before things could get worse.

Haringey Borough v Yeovil was abandoned today after 64 minutes after Haringeys keeper was racially abused and spat at by visiting 'supporters.'

Match abandoned today because of racist abuse......https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50111754

There's a video doing the rounds on Facebook taken by a witnessing Yeovil fan. Difficult to hear anything on it but there are some suspicious things being shouted that are just not clear enough to hear properly.

It’s back to education the people making the flag or Villa fans chanting at their player and Pools fans to Gus Mafuta are not intending to be abusive or racist towards these players the intention is to support them. So even calling these incidents on a similar level to racist abuse is a little over the top for me but it forms a very important part of the bigger and more complex issue.

People are learning this type of support and racial stereotyping is no longer acceptable you hope they take this on board. Players have to be just players don’t label them differently because they are black, this is sort of the next step on from your full on racist knuckle dragging buffoons but an important part of the bigger picture in combatting the wider issue.