This time in the Premier League, Norwich city fans:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49962935

If anything it's a more serious one than the one Pools are waiting for the FA's judgement on - "a small group" of fans singing a racist chant during Saturday's game with Villa.

It doesn't diminish the horrible incident in the Town End one iota, but it does make a nonsense of smearing the whole town with the Brexit brush - "only to be expected in Hartlepool, blah blah blah."

Norwich is a lovely place and a haven for the middle classes - one Tory, one Labour MP (Clive Lewis). A headline in today's Norwich Evening News is "Norfolk activists help shut down Westminster in Extinction Rebellion protest."

There are still racists everywhere in this country. FA take note!

Isn’t it Aston Villa’s own fans being accused of this?

I saw something on Twitter that implied as much.

There is no such thing as 'racist' - as we are all the same race, namely homo sapiens.

Tribalism it what it is, and any argument to the contrary is ludicrous.

No that’s the species, same as Labrador or a Collie. Basically what your saying there is correct we are all the same but idiots see the outside and judge based on that. Being a molecular biologist (DNA) I suspect if I showed you a profile from a person from Africa, Europe, or South America there would be no difference based on the diploid number of the species.

Bugger, yes it is. Oh well, bits of Birmingham are nice!

Saying that race is a social construct rather than a biological fact is fair comment. Choosing to use that as the basis of an argument that racism doesn't exist is just silly attention seeking and I suspect you know that.

Given that the investigations into a high profile incident at Pools, which is unanimously agreed to have been racist in nature, are ongoing that sort of post is, at best, irresponsible.

On 61 minutes the ITV commentator of the England game mentioned a racist incident at a Hartlepool match.
Cheers Gareth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was the moron in the Town End called Gareth?

Referencing and unnecessary repeating the unwise the comments of Southgate who has been through many media training courses.

Christ....

Oh dear...

Yes but why reference a small town in NE England as an example.
This stuff goes out to the whole nation and makes Hartlepool seem like a hotbed of racism......Cheers Gareth!

Aye it was Southgates fault what happened at pools Cos he mentioned it

Jesus fuckin Christ


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Why were Southgates comments ‘unwise’

Radio 5 have just said the organisation FAIR reported 35 incidents of racism In England last year and only 3 in Bulgaria, now this may not be accurate, however if you think racism isn’t an issue in Hartlepool right now, you must have pickled onions for ears

Why the fuck not mention it ?

Did it happen ?

Yes

Was it awful ?

Yes

Can people talk about it ?

Yes


Go away man


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Bulgarian manager:

'If something can be proven, then we are sorry but we cannot speak on behalf of some fans.'

If it's not proven, they're not sorry! I hope that's just been lost in translation as the evidence is pretty clear.

I saw videos of people finding swatstika stickers outside the ground and on park benches. Fans were doing nazi salutes, clear as day really.

Hope the traveling England fans are OK. Heard there were a few confrontations outside the ground after the match.

Not sure if the reporters managed to keep a straight face as he talked after the match. Said he didnt hear any racism and then asked why his captain went to talk to the fans he replied with something along the lines with "to apologise for our poor play"

It wasn’t head in the sand

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50050684

Borat plays football.

You could tell by his body language when the game was stopped that he was going to respond in that way shrugging his shoulders and outstretched arms. The monkey noises were audible on the TV and to suggest that Bulgaria have never had this problem before is comical. They’d had jumpers printed up FFS!! The neo Nazis must have decided just to turn up for the England game. Nothing will happen until they acknowledge the issue and stop trying to deny its until then it’s not even starting to go away, UEFA have to be the catalyst for this. Closing sections of the ground and putting banners on the seats isn’t going to achieve anything when the same people are getting in the ground.

At the same time let’s not pretend an element of England’s traveling support lean quite a way across to the far right as well.

I thought Southgate and the England team dealt with it in the best possible way by absolutely playing them off the park (it should have been double figures) and finishing the game. England must have told the referee at half time that they wanted to finish the game because you could still hear the noises every time Tyrone Mings especially got the ball. I’m not sure walking off the pitch is the way forward though as then it’s a sense of achievement for people who pre determined and coordinated the racial abuse.

Perhaps the best thing to have done last night would have been to abandon the game at half-time. Then EUFA backed up the decision by awarding the match as an 0-8 win for England, and a lengthy ban for the Bulgarian national team.

Rather than punishing the real Bulgarian fans, why not target the guilty fans who were very clearly filmed hurling abuse, making monkey noises and giving the nazi salute. Surely any competent police force would have no trouble rounding them up with that evidence?
I won’t hold my breath.

I heard yesterday that unbelievably many of perpetrators were stewards!! Which highlights perfectly what the Bulgarian authorities are authorities are up against, and how out of hand the situation has got. Neo Nazi's policing games!!

I get what you are saying Phil but I don't think riding in roughshod and condemning a whole nation is the way forward approaches like that normally make situations worse. I agree with Snowy those guilty of the sub human behavior displayed need to punished, severely and publicly. Behave like that in 2019 and you go to prison as you have no place in society if you displays those views. Partial and full stadium closures achieve absolutely nothing, the one the other night just seemed to whip up more hatred. Severe consequences do put most people off doing stuff at the end of the day, obviously that doesn't make the problem go away but it's a start.

What would closing the Vic for a game achieve down to the actions of one bloke? I wouldn't support that at all to be honest, Pools were proactive and dealt with the situation head on. I am not naïve enough to think that nobody else in the ground is capable of displaying racism when the right buttons are pressed so the bloke from the Dover game needs to be punished as harshly as the club can via a life ban from attending Pools games. Also the Police and the courts need to take it and punish it as harshly as they possibly can. So after that incident we can't be complacent as club and what we did in the aftermath of Dover has to be ongoing. You need a deterrent firstly and a constant reminder that this will not be tolerated anywhere near our ground.

It's easy to condemn Bulgarians as backward but it's all about education, nobody is born racist. UEFA have to finally confront this head on and work with these nations rather than just putting banners over a few seats when the inevitable happens. It is a wider issue of the far right rising in many places around the World and it's easy to palm it off is not footballs problem but they are clearly using football as a platform to display this. 'Kick it Out' needs to be replicated around Europe. UEFA need to be proactive and the football authorities across Europe either need to accept the problem or not participate under the banner of UEFA, it's up to them. The level of denial from people like the Bulgarian coach and keeper shows how far behind they are in terms of education on this issue, they also should be facing lengthy bans for the absurd comments they made after the game. Either confront the issue head on or don't participate in tournaments.

Hang about Phil, it’s not that long since fans here were guilty of racism. Did we all call for a self inflicted ban on ourselves for our ignorance? I remember going to matches in the early 70’s where winding up coloured players didn’t raise an eyebrow. It took clubs in this country decades to tackle and the racists are still there below the surface.
Bulgaria was part of that Eastern European bloc controlled by the Soviet Union till not that long ago and still has a way to go. The only way it will change is through education and that takes time. There is no other way. There is no quick fix.
Sanctions by all means, but education is equally important.

They should have walked off and the game forfeited 10-0. The same should have happened at pools. You cant educate thick racists. EUFAs half hearted attitude is disgraceful too. They just had to charge england too thus belittling the seriousness of the real crime.

I’m not sure I agree with that either, by walking off the scum have achieved something I think they dealt with the situation in the best way possible by finishing the game and playing in the manner they did. At the end of the day the racism was planned the 50 or so doing it were all dressed the same some even had clothing with slogans printed on it, they were out to cause disruption why give them the badge of honour?

Why? Simply because nobody should have to put up with racist abuse. The Uefa rules actually allow them chant racist abuse 3 times. So you are saying the players hear racist abuse and complain but know they have to go back on the pitch and face it a second time and still the game will go on? Thats not good enough. The racists havent won anything. They have cost their team a 10-0 defeat. No human being should have to play through racist abuse in the hope that it will get better. There needs to be zero tolerance. Not lillylivered excuses about educating them and any other nonsense excuses people will make. Like for instance "he celebrated a little too much in front of us".

In effect what Eufa are saying is Now now boys you have had your bit of racist fun now behave and lets all be friends or we will get really vexed and announce a second warning. Its wrong on so many levels.

The players wanted to finish the game they were there experiencing it so I don’t think you are in a position to tell them they were wrong. As for UEFA’s way of dealing with it, I agree it’s clearly not fit for purpose but I have already said that, they have announced today a partial stadium closure at Lazios ground when they play Celtic due to racism, utterly pointless.

Can we just flip this around as most of us on here are white how would you feel if directed at you? I have been on end of racist abuse through an ex and it’s sickening. I think idiots even condoning this second hand saying it due to x y z should think about that. We are all human and the same.

Exactly. There is no place for it anywhere and there never was. It wasnt just me saying they should have walked off. Ian Wright, Paul Ince, John Barnes just three I have seen interviewed all said the same. Its not a crisitism of those England players that bravely carried on but I believe its well established that the only way to beat racism is to have zero tolerence and not play through it.

Has the ‘Hartlepool One’ been named yet. Does anyone known if he’s actually been dealt with?

It’s in the hands of the police the last I read, I suppose these things take time, Pools will hand out the life ban when it’s finished as a legal matter at a guess?

If pools response was so good what did they actually do bar taking down a far right flag that shouldn't of been there and making fans up a banner?

There is still no number to report racism and a song about Gus using a racist trope was allegedly sung in the ground on the game after. People who threw punches near the tunnel at the end of the Dover game in the direction of players who had a been racially abused are still attending games. Raj made the similar comments about Dover players actions and the referee which have been condemned on this board when made by other posters. The match announcer is attacking Southgate on twitter as well.

Then he should be sacked

If anyone thinks southgate is in the wrong then yer just a great big doyle.

What he said, at the time, was correct.. obviously since the bulgarians have ramped it up a notch.

But he's still correct in it being a terrible incident and just as bad if not worse than anywhere else in europe.

Lets get things straight here. No where in the world, job or situation should there be an excuse for racial abuse at all. Anyone going away from this is wrong, same goes for Homophobia. I just think anyone doing these things are very insular and not very well educated.

The Dover players actions and the performance of the referee are separate issues and trivial in comparison but aren’t beyond reproach.

People need to get off their high horse slightly this is a complex issue without a straightforward answer. Pools have dealt with the situation head on I am sure the intention will be for that to be ongoing.

You said they dealt with it well

They did a good PR exercise without admitting any fault on their part or confronting the issues and attitudes that exist in supporter base.

How was it the clubs fault exactly?

It’s not an overnight fix if people have those sort of ingrained views is it? What more could they have done in the immediate aftermath? How do you know they don’t have plans to confront this more long term, we never want this in our ground again so it has to be ongoing.

I’d imagine Kick it Out have far more understanding on the issue than even you and they praised the clubs initial response.

It is not a complex issue at all. Until there is zero tolerence towards racism it will never go away. Knowing racism is wrong is not something that needs teaching. Its not a school subject like maths.

If you allow a flag of a far right group in the ground you can't be suprised if it emboldens racists to let it out. How about having stewards who were trained not to let a bloke accused of racism to walk out the ground.

How about not having the chairman repeating the same lines as people on the Facebook page.

If they wanted to make a difference they could of got players to read the social media and explain how supporters were wrong in what they were saying in a YouTube video.

The interview with gus was great but was undermined a little by what Raj said IMO

They could of set up a line to report racist incidents

They could of responded to reports of supporters using racist tropes in songs.

the thing is that it is complex. getting away from the dover incident we do not want to get the whole population walking on eggshells because of a fear they have committed some racist crime. there is a big difference in the attack on someone because of a different race than a similar one where the person it happened to only happened to be of a different race. its a very fine line at the moment and do not want to see it blurred anymore. you can push things too much where it only gives racists more ammunition and can add to their cause and not take away from it.

[quote="unruly poolie"]

The interview with gus was great but was undermined a little by what Raj said IMO

if its what Raj wrote in the programme. thought he was spot on. imagine he actually knows more about the subject than anyone on here does including me.

I'm glad it's not the population who have to think about what they say but black footballers who have to be mindful of how they celebrate.

Of course it’s a complex issue, massively complex and layered. It’s nearly all about education. No person is born with any sort of prejudice but some of it is subliminal because of how they have been brought up or the groups they mix in. You have seen people on Pools forums in recent weeks who aren’t stupid but don’t know why certain things are offensive or unacceptable.

Who has suggested they didn’t know it was wrong!? I think most people are aware being a neo Nazi in 2019 isn’t widely accepted.

But the reaction in Bulgaria reveals the wider issue like it did to a lesser extent at Pools.

I think you are wrong here. Even the dumbest of the dumb know racism is wrong and most of the ones being racist are not that dumb to start with. How you think its massively complex is beyond me. Dont abuse people because of the colour of their skin. How hard is that to grasp? Mental health is a massively complex issue but racism isnt. When you say its subliminal or the groups they mix in its just pandering to them. They are not 4 year old children doing this they are fully formed adult blokes.