So apparently Winston Churchill was now a terrible man because he said some stuff (and did some as well to be fair) ages ago. I imagine he was quite a complexed man given what he lived through. But to make judgements now based on more modern values is fucking ridiculous. Different times so to speak.

But I’d say he made a fairly decent contribution overall in life far more than some offence seeker in 2019. These type of pricks need to fuck right off. Can you imagine any of these spineless, slimy little twats representing us now living through a couple of World Wars? Or even facing what the people of that generation had to? These c unts would go into meltdown is Twitter went off for the day and they are having a pop at Winston Churchill!!?

I’m tired of people applying current values to figures in history totally unable to put things of the context of the time. Churchill was a very complex figure and remember a teacher years ago comparing Churchill with Hitler, he said if you compared the two who would you choose on their profile. One was someone who liked a drink, smoked cigars and was a loose cannonball, the other was a vegetarian, non smoking, tee totaller who loved children, animals and cream teas.
Most people would unwittingly select Hitler.
We should just be grateful that Churchill succeeded Chamberlain and not the popular choice of Lord Halifax the appeaser.

Isn't it possible that people aren't simply judging Churchill by current values but by values that existed at the time. During the 1910-11 miners strike in Wales he gave the instruction for armed police to, "Drive the rats back back down their holes". Are we supposed to believe that everybody in 1911, including the miners and everybody else involved in the wave of industrial action that was sweeping Britain at the time, agreed that the miners should be shot?

The truth is that views in the past varied enormously just as they do now.

Churchill was an arch-imperialist and fervent anti-communist who didn't give a shit about opposing fascism and was even very complimentary about Mussolini. In Rome in 1927 he said: “If I had been an Italian I am sure that I should have been whole-heartedly with you from the start to finish in your triumphant struggle against the bestial appetites and passions of Leninism."

It was his desire to defend the Empire that made him a staunch opponent of appeasement although the extra time it bought to prepare for war probably proved to be very valuable. It also helped to make him into an effective war leader during WW2 (lets just ignore the disaster at Gallipoli in WW1) but its worth remembering that despite that he lost the post-war election. Plenty of people wanted to move on to a fairer society and they knew that a Tory toff like Churchill wouldn't make that happen.

Its the same when people assume that everybody was racist. Churchill was so racist that even Tory cabinet members in the 1920s were a bit shocked by him. Over half a century earlier the Chartists elected a black bloke called William Cuffay to their leadership in London so its hard to see how they were all racists. When Churchill justified the use of chemical weapons in what is now Iraq on the grounds that it was OK to gas uncivilised tribes I'm pretty sure the people living in Mesopotamia didn't see themselves that way and wouldn't have been OK with being gassed.

Any reasonable, balanced and historical assessment of Churchill should take into account his failures, wrong-doings and horribly reactionary views alongside his wartime oratory, leadership qualities and wit. People at the time were fully aware that he had his flaws so why are we supposed to ignore them now?

On the other hand you can just call people who try to take the past seriously 'slimy twats' and rant on about whether they'd be much use in a world war. I'm not sure any of us know that unless one happens and hopefully we won't find out.

The above from Mr. Toulouse, with bells on. As I'm sure I've mentioned before, my granddad won a decoration for personal valour in WW1 but loathed Churchill with a passion. No doubt he agreed with Churchill standing up to the Nazis in 1940 but that didn't cancel out his personal animosity generated decades before when he was a coal miner and a soldier at Gallipoli.

Glib judgments about past events and personalities informed by popular culture are always nonsense. Right-wing outrage about the temerity of any criticism of Churchill is as daft as most Guardian readers' blind faith in the idea that everything 'the English' did in the past was bad by definition.

Meantime, looking forward to the comedy gold of PJ trying to justify his rant when he sobers up.

Churchill had his faults and they shouldn't be glossed over just because of his exploits during WW2.
The miners hated him and he treat them abominably. He has always come across to me as an arrogant bully, so I've never been a fan of the man as a man.
However, whilst he had faults, one thing is absolutely certain and that is his leadership and steadfast refusal to bow to tyranny in the 40's.
In the modern day that is what he is remembered for.
We can debate Churchill's faults and achievements all day but we must consider if we would be able to freely have these conversations in a fearless and frank manner if he hadn't done what he did in the 40's.
On the racist issue, there was racism in all of us in those days, especially when compared with modern day outlook. It wasn't vicious and intentional, it was the norm. Children were given golliwog dolls and we had golliwogs on our marmalade jars. Women described colours as nigger brown and nigger black as everyday descriptions. Nowadays those examples would cause outrage.
There is a lot to like Churchill for and a lot to dislike him for but no one can question his love for his country and his willingness to stand up for it.
He wasn't perfect but which one of us is.

There is a problem with seeing Churchill as a saviour though Mr Derwent. The whole Britain stood alone thing was never really true because there was a huge Empire supporting the war effort even if some of the people living in it would have far rather had independence. On top of that, when it comes to ridding Europe of Hitler you've also got to give a lot of credit to the USA and, whisper it quietly, the USSR who Churchill favoured invading once the Germany was defeated.

Churchill and the people of Britain certainly did a lot to defeat Hitler's Germany but changing that into Churchill saved us all from Nazi rule is a massive jump that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

My position is that Churchill was a deeply horrible man with frighteningly right wing views who was also charming, clever and funny in many ways. He was a poor peacetime politician who cared little for the ordinary people of his country and even less for the subjects of the British Empire. However, during the war his oratory, understanding of propaganda and leadership skills made him a good leader so he contributed a lot to the eventual victory. Just as well he lost the election though because he would have been a nightmare in the post-war period.

One really interesting thing about Churchill's speeches is that virtually none of them were heard by ordinary people.

After his humiliating post-war election defeat he realised he would have to craft his own mythology. Therefore he recorded a load of those 'we will fight them on the beaches' speeches in the 50s.

They never came out of family Bakelite radios as all those war films portrayed. Parliament was never broadcast at the time.

I'm also very cynical about exactly how much influence he had on the war, and how much of it was due to generals and other strategists quietly going about their job.

I think most people refer to the period after the Fall of France and not giving in which his rival and favoured candidate for role of Prime Minister by the Tory Party Lord Halifax, was putting out peace feelers via third party’s.
At that time the States weren’t interested and public opinion was not really interested in getting involved with only 8% of the US public in favour of aiding Britain. Also at that vital time they demanded payment up front for weapons and when the money ran out they offered to buy British companies in the US at bargain basement prices.
The Russians were allies of Germany and divided Poland up between them, the Russians became our allies when the Hitler decided to invade Russia, prior to that they supplied Germany with natural resources from oil to grain.
He was the man of the moment, he was the right man at the right time.
If you fell in the river and the local murderer dived in and rescued you, his record would be an irrelevance to you at the time.

My position is that Churchill was a deeply horrible man with frighteningly right wing views who was also charming, clever and funny in many ways. He was a poor peacetime politician who cared little for the ordinary people of his country and even less for the subjects of the British Empire. However, during the war his oratory, understanding of propaganda and leadership skills made him a good leader so he contributed a lot to the eventual victory. Just as well he lost the election though because he would have been a nightmare in the post-war period.[/quote]
think plenty from wales and even the hartlepool area at the time had similar views on churchill. the father of her indoors was a soldier in ww2 and really hated the bloke and my dad and his brothers and sisters all boen in hartlepool between 1903 and 1925 had the same views. as someone born just after the war and knew nothing about the 1945 general election it was hard for me to grasp why the country turned their back on him big style until you know some of the other facts.

I'm amazed that this is even a discussion. There is no doubt whatsoever that Churchill stands head and shoulders above any other leader in world history. He led this country to victory against the greatest and strongest army the world has ever seen and stood tall in victory. He held together a coalition of Roosevelt, Stalin and himself which is no mean task in itself. Yes he did create camps, not in the style of the Nazi's as is often claimed. He did use gas but then so did the French the other weekend - neither were Zyklon B.

Without him who knows what Hitler would have done perhaps even surpassing the holocaust. He wasn't perfect but his victory over the Nazis somehow trumps what he might have said about 'darkies'.

think germany attacking russia and japan attacking pearl harbour thence bringing em into the war had a little influence on the war as well.

Obviously, but both Russia and the US were not getting involved otherwise. Stalin made it plain he was happy to see the Western powers of the time batter themselves senseless while he stood aloof, waiting to pick up what he could from the aftermath. The Americans did ok finacially from the Second World War while we emerged bankrupt.

Stalin, as Mr Snow says was happy to pick up the pieces but he knew he couldn't do it alone, he needed the Western powers to tackle the Germans from the other flank. Germany would have won if either the Ruskies or the UK/US were absent. It was Churchill who was the glue that held the pact together. There are plenty of icons of WW2 but not one single person in history more responsible for defeating Hitler. This revisionism of today is stomach churning but then I couldn't have rebuffed it better than Nicholas Soames did the other day in a Churchillian manner.

Setting aside any other argument, whatever the outcome of the war had been, we would not all be speaking German now, just as we don't speak Latin or Norman French. Especially now that we don't need any more loan words to complete our vocabulary.

Going slightly off topic I listen to a great podcast with Russell Kane called evil genius.

It explores the lives of famous people from the past n decides if they are true geniuses or kind of evil.

It does polarise because someone as amazing as John Lennon had a son that he just completely cut off for no reason. And Walt Disney was a huge racist who hated workers and sacked them all Cos they wanted to form a union.

Well worth a listen from where you get your pods. Funny and informative.

Certainly makes you torn over certain people.


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That's what Hey Jude is all about I believe.
Peter Sellers was also apparently a world class c**nt, but I can't not like his films.

Cheers pubey I love a podcast seen a the flitoff one not been on an I hear all my dad wrote a porno and no such thing as a fish I give it a go

I doubt that the lives of plumbers, brickies, electricians, etc would be any different now had Hitler not been defeated. After all Germany currently dominates Europe economically. The losers had Hitler succeeded would have been royalty and the landed gentry. We fight wars to enable the rich to preserve what they have. The working and lower classes have few assets to be stripped.

Can I just add does anyone care? Let’s be honest he was the right man at the right time for anyone to think he wasn’t racist doesn’t know the past everyone in the UK was at that time. Even during my youth my aunts who where 15-30 years older than my dad who was youngest used to call a bloke on their street nigger Albert when I asked them was their any other bloke was called Albert they said no but it so we knew who we where talking about. That to me is shocking and I don’t understand it but that was the time. Now I used to live in oxford and went to Belenheim and saw all the Churchill history and you cannot he amazed by how he did what he did. Remember he was from a different time from a very high class family but as a sort of young man when listening to his words you cannot he not moved. Also some of his come back eg I be sober in morning but you always be ugly are classic. He was a product of his class and time I can accept that and gave us our freedom but his values no. Same as Mandela lorded by all but look at his past

This is on of the worst, most indefensible and shocking posts I have read in all the time I’ve been on this board
Are you actually advocating the lunatic theory that life under Hitler would have made no difference to the ordinary people and it would have only affected the toffs and Royalty (who he actually admired in this country)
So, what about Jews, homosexuals, gipsys and all the on their non Aryans he despised? So life would have just ticked over in a society where industrialed mass murder was the norm. I suggest you give your head a vigorous shake.

Countries like this exist today!

‘Countries like this exist today’ you say, and....? Just because they exist doesn’t make it acceptable.
Do you begin to comprehend the banality of just what was written in that awful post, because it was basically ‘ Hitler’s OK , he’s canny, he won’t bother us it’s just the others he’s after, so let’s not get involved and carry on’. Then you realise how all the Hitlers in history came to power because people took an ‘I’m alright Jack’ attitude and turned a blind eye.

‘Heroes’ all have another past. When France surrendered, Gandhi on the 22nd of June 1940 told the Indian newspaper Harijans that ‘Germans of future generations will honour Herr Hitler as a genius, as a brave man, a matchless organiser and much more’.
Oh dear.

I didn't say it was acceptable. My post was said with sadness after reading what Phil had wrote.

Fair enough.

I had a Richard Churchill working for me in Wales, 6ft 6 and a nice bloke.

I was on a gas platform off Great Yarmouth years ago and sitting between a contractor and an operator in the tea shack. The contractor was called David Gower and the operator was called Winston Churchill ( Winnie for short) I kid you not.

Anyone got a pet parrot called Neville Chamberlain?

No but I know a guy called Neville Neville

Horrible bastard Churchill, apart from the obvious stains on his character , such as Tonypandy and the Black and Tans, he was also a whisky soaked womanising pisshead.

For Christ's sake get off the fence man. I never thought you would let Churchill off so lightly. I think being on holiday and having tea at the Kremlin has mellowed you somewhat.
Rumour has it that your application for Russian citizenship has been turned down, which could be the reason for your confusion.
If you wish to re apply I would be delighted to provide you with a reference.
PS....Did you bring any rock back. I like rock.
PPS. Whilst you were away Higgy masterminded a 4-0 away win. You were right to demand that higgy should be manager.
How do you do it. Your perception is phenomenal.

Hitler was a vegetarian, tee total, non smoking, lover of cream teas and loved pets and children.. But he wasn’t a Tory.

I hate Churchill more than any other human can possibly believe!

I was outside Greatham and someone crashed into me, so I took out a claim! A 62% premium increase occurred along with a £200 administration fee! Awful customer service too.

Oh...we're talking about Winston?

Yeaaahs

Won't anyone think of those poor Cuban women in the Romeo y Julieta factory who would have been out of work, with nothing to roll on their thighs, were it not for Chruchill.

Also, he was a dunce at wit, especially the "if you explain a joke without being asked, it stops being funny" part.

Bessie Braddock:"You are disgustingly drunk. "
Winston Churchill: "You are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober..."

See, instead of adding "...and you will still be ugly", which is fucking obvious, he should have added "...instead of too pissed to know when to end a joke."

I disagree. He never said, but implied it and left it to neutral observer to draw their own conclusion without directly stating the obvious point. The insult is then the observers thought process because Churchill actually and cleverly said nothing. He is using the Max Miller school of innuendo.

That’s half the board insulted as well.

I think the truth is nobody had a pen handy to write down the exact words Sir Win said. In any case the insult was plagiarized from quips made well before he reached the drinking age.
And he was telling porkies when he said he'd be sober the next day.

If the ravishing Ms Braddock had told me I was disgustingly drunk, I would have replied "Now that's what I call a result."

The two worst reactions to an insult:

"I didn't come here to be insulted!"
("So this isn't your usual haunt then?")

"I've never been so insulted in my life!"
("Sorry, nobody's going to buy that.")

Yes good point ! Of course a lot of those factories had to lay people off after Churchill and Fidel passed away.

Difference is we have to pay for our drink, and I imagine listening to some of the craic on here at times, probably a fair few have to pay for their women as well

there is a rumour though that he would have banned the bunker because of his experiances wiith em.