If Corbyn was electable he’d be Prime Minister now, this is the worst government in modern history presiding over a farce which they caused entirely and he still wouldn’t be elected which speaks volumes.

I hate the right wing press in UK, the coverage before the last election and since and some of the regular smears of Corbyn have been absolutely vile. It’s pure propaganda and brain washing to protect the elite who are terrified of the prospect of Corbyn as Prime Minister. But the fact remains that the bloke doesn’t even have a majority in terms of support from his own party, and if he can’t win or even force a general election now he never will. He’s served his purpose going forward Labour need a change.

The referendum only came about because there was no way it could lose. Otherwise there’s no way it would have come about.
I got a surprise at the time but later found the whole business so very funny.
It was enlightening to see the masks drop and the frothing begin with the previously ‘reasonable’ people. A real eye opener.
summat’ll turn up, it always does.

Corbyn is a hostage to the suits in his Party, it’s just a matter of time. They grind people down, that’s what they do.

She should have been sacked back in 2012..I'm surprised PJ hasn't had one his hysterical rants about her .

Why is it shite?

To be honest, I stole the majority of it from a letter from the Viz, which itself is a swipe at arsehole readers of the express and mail, who bemoan the standards of new comedians while using the kiddie diddlers from the past as role models, you closet Tory arsehole

At last there seems to be an acceptance that being anti -Corbyn & co doesn't mean being anti-Labour or pro Tory. Indeed I would like to see a good choice for voters and a strong opposition. It's good for the country.

I'm tired of Labour trying to convince us that the Tories are crap (we agree) and perhaps they should be trying to convince us that Corbyn is not (some hope). It's time to stop making excuses for the likes of Corbyn and Abbott. Whether you believe Corbyn is incompetent or otherwise, he and his pals are the biggest obstacles in the way of ousting the Tories.

Remember the tune from Jaws preceding the attack?

Switch his head for Kier Starmer and you’ve got the new Labour leader. Underneath the rhetoric they are one and the same. As a Tory, Starmer worries me much more than Corbynski.

If you want an example of why I said you talk shyte, Mr Avenger, calling me a closet Tory is about the best example available.
Calling me an arsehole is indicative of the hard left and indicative of your intelligence.
Calling moderate socialists names will not encourage us to meekly bow down to Momentum type intimidation or bullying.
Momentum may be able to deselect or intimidate moderate MPs but all they'll do to moderate Labour supporters is drive them away.
Stupidity of the glaring variety.
As there are well over a million people who read the Mail or Express, I would like to congratulate you on your vast stamina which enabled you to meet them, or most of them, which in turn enabled you to declare them as arseholes. Or is that also shyte????
I think your arsehole jibe should be directed closer to home.

Tldr

He is mediocre, and would be right up the tories street. Richard Burgon would be my choice.

I really hope you get him, He's a younger version of Corbyn crossed with John Inman.

Where do you get the John Inman bit from Mr I ?

Eh seriously!! He's as queer as a Diane Abbot spreadsheet!

Well that could apply to the majority of politicians to be fair.

Bloody hell John, that's a decent chunk of political incorrectness in only ten words

Here's a few more..

The bloke is a mincing closet shirtlifter.

Yeah yeah ! One party full of LGBTs the other full of Nonces, I'll leave you to decide which is which. I know which party I would rather vote for.

Were not the fist years at senior schools called "Faggots".

Can you imagine going into Asda and asking one of the assistants "have you got any faggots please"? Your next question would be where is the nearest A&E.

Did not MG do a sports car called an LGBGT?

Oh shit i honestly meant to say FIRST year

As a Marxist he is also a Country shagger, a democracy shagger, a freedom of choice shagger and a Labour party shagger.
A condition of joining Momentum is that every new member has to vote Labour. I thought I would add that, just in case honourable and right honourable members had any doubts regarding the spectrum of shagging I have mentioned. Not even Scargill went to those lengths.
What we are witnessing is the takeover of the Labour Party by the hard left. Or in the remarks of our right honourable member Mr Horden. "We are taking our party back". I always thought that the Labour Party was open to a broad church of people. It certainly was when I joined all those years ago.
Instead of forming their own unelectable party, they have made the Labour party itself unelectable thus denying the country with an effective opposition as well as giving us all the prospect of a Tory government for the foreseeable future.

Momentum only came into being, because your lot, who are basically just tories with a heart took over and ruined the party, remember the cleansing of the Militant Tendency in the early 80s? yep that was your lot , some people have short memories and they tend not to be lefties, well we are back, and its us or the tories, your choice.

You have hit the nail right in the middle of it's head.
You say " It's either us or the Tories"
The British people will never vote for a hard left Government and even if they did, that left wing Government wouldn't last five minutes.
Like I have said earlier.....Your lot will keep the Tories in power, just like your lot united the Tory party after Corbyn tabled the motion of no confidence in the Government. Theresa May had split the Tory Party right down the middle, your lot united them overnight.
This Tory Government is the worst in modern history and Labour, in any other era, would have sent them packing by now.
Before you can change anything in our country you have to get elected. The day you and the hard left begin to realise that will be the first day in the battle to oust the Tories.

Starmer's default facial expression bugs me - he looks like he's spent his entire life constipated.

It’s the old yesteryear Darlo rivalry in politics. The only thing that matters is stuffing the opposition. We were that busy basing our season on the result two matches a year, we forgot that the bragging rights are a diversion, when what we should have really been concentrating on was applying all our efforts to winning all our games

Shouty Corbyn v Sour Teresa. Oh dear.

Derwent , your obsessive hatred of the left of the Labour Party is unhealthy, surely the best thing to do is work together to beat the tories, but your lot like the tories don't do compromise. I have always said this and hearing you on doesn't change my view, those on the right of the Labour Party hate the left of the party more than they do the tories, and you prove it. Oh well , we'll just have to put up with the tories then, thankfully I will be gone before the shit really hits the fan.

Sorry Mr Horden but I don't hate anybody in that respect but the Tories come closest.
I would admit that the hard left frustrate me, simply because they keep the Tories in power.
If you look at countries who adopted the hard left. The only way they could maintain their superiority was by oppressing the people and denying choice at the ballot box. Most of them have compromised because suppression has a limited span. Can you imagine the British people accepting anything anywhere near that. Germany epitomised that. After the second world war, Western Germany thrived and the Eastern part fell way behind, So much so they had to build barricades to keep their people in. It doesn't work my friend.
The Labour party needs to be able to work with business not drive it away.
The ideals of Communism and it's various forms are wonderful in theory but then humans come along and cock it up.

Mr Derwent, one thing I think you're very wrong about is the idea that the Labour Party was a broad church and that the left have ruined that. Kinnock went after the left and then Blair took the purges to new levels. He systematically dismantled and rebuilt any structures that gave ordinary Labour Party members or the unions any influence on policies. The right in the unions did the same. I've never been a member of the Labour Party but I was on the receiving end of the right's behaviour in my union myself and they were never interested in fairness, truth or democracy. The only objective was to smash the left and they used all manner of rule book abuses to do it. If that caused participation in unions and LP branches to drop they were all the happier - it's much easier to control people who aren't even there.

I think there is a bit of payback going on among some older Momentum people but they're mostly young people who want change and want to be involved in getting it. Corbyn himself is a right softy when it comes to the right - he keeps giving them chances and trying to maintain a fairly broad approach when they'd all do for him at the drop of a hat. I suspect he is only tolerant because a bloody internal war would scupper any election hopes but, judged on actions, he's a lot more tolerant than the 'centre' ever was.

Nail on head ! well said

I sympathise with a lot of that, and as I have said before, whether Socialism is right or not, and I think it is right, there does not seem an appetite for Socialism in this country, there never was and unless the young want it, and clearly some seem interested, there never will be.

So where does that leave us? clearly there needs to be a happy medium with both sides making comprimises and working together to defeat a common enemy, the tories, but as Mr Toulouse so eloquently explained the problem lies with the right not the left of the party. Kinnock set out to smash the left and we ever had to clone a tory to create Tony Bliar, who did such a good job at ut torying the tories , the tories then in order to win an election cloned him in the form of David Cameron. The thing with business is they are solely tied up with the business of making profits , so its difficult to work with them in a way that doesn't prejudice your values and beliefs, we all know that by keeping workers wages low and doing away with workers rights helps increase profits, so how do we work with that?.

I think you need to read my post again, Mr T. I said it was a broad church when I joined and it was. I joined in the early sixties, long before Kinnock or Blair became leaders.
If the right of the party was waging war on the left, it didn't do the likes of Corbyn, Abbott or even Skinner any harm. They are still there. There has always been a left and right in the Labour party but never a hard left or a hard right, not like we are heading for now. I am not against the left, in fact I am a big fan of Skinner. He is a proper Tory basher.
You need to understand where I am coming from.
Put quite simply.
I am anti Tory and want them out.
I can't see Corbyn et al getting them out, because he is a Marxist and I can't see the British people voting him in.
Therefore we are stuck with the Tories.
I can't for the life of me see where any of that is misunderstood.

I do see what you mean and I did read what you said carefully - always find your posts worth a proper read. I just get the feeling that you generally lay the blame for the death of the broad church that existed when you joined on the left. I'd argue it was the right who started the internal process that ended in its near death. I think the likes of Corbyn were just tolerated because they were good constituency MPs and so isolated that they didn't offer any sort of serious threat to the right who are no doubt regretting that complacency now!

To be honest I think its probably the case that the strange birth of the Labour Party meant it was going to go to be prone to internal scrapping. On the one hand you had self-help Methodist reformists and on the other you had militant (small M) trade unionists who would have joined and then stuck with the Communist Party if it hadn't been for the union ties to Labour. Amazing that the two traditions have got along quite well for so much of the time really.

First and foremost nobody goes into business to make a loss, businessmen want a profit.
The Government, of whatever colour, raises revenue from businesses and the people who work in them.
Wages are paid from profits, and if there are no profits, it isn't long before wages stop being paid and jobs disappear.
Profits, in themselves, are necessary to keep any enterprise going, are necessary for taxation revenue, are necessary for future investment in the business and the likes of research and development of new products etc., the paying of staff within the business and giving investors a return for investing and backing the business in the first place.
The biggest bone of contention as I see it, is how the profit cake is divided up.
That is where focus has to be centred.
Neither side trusts the other and yet both sides rely on each other.
We have to stop/change the mistrust and bickering and back off trying to destroy each other because we need each other.
if you want a starting point, have a look at the vitreol that crosses the despatch box in parliament.
Have a look at the party system that encourages Tory to disagree with everthing suggested by labour and vice versa.
Have a look at the very core of the political system and accept that we are first and foremost citizens of the same country.
If you want progress make a start in those areas.

Then there's Ramsay MacDonald's coalition politics destroying Labour unity in the 1930s and the birth of the Independent Labour Party, who unlike the SDP, were well to the left of the rump of the Labour Party but not communists.

Wouldn't have money against another attempt at realigning British politics in the not too distant future.

And they can get on quite well again. Mr T.
To do it they need to reject completely any form of extremism and come together, make themselves appealing to the electorate and get themselves into a position where they are decision makers rather than a non achieving opposition. If I thought Corbyn could achieve this I would back him. You will remember that all his political career if everybody said yes Corbyn would say no. He's a rebel and that is not the sort you need to heal the ever widening rifts within the party. Dividing the party is easy, getting it together is a bit more difficult. Ironically Corbyn has united a party, the Tory party.

I also wouldn't bet against realignment either but I would like to see a total shake up of the whole political system. There has got to be something better than continuous point scoring bickering.

Maybe what’s changed are the voters. As long as the majority feel comfortable, politics is of no real interest to them.
It’s surprising how the majority don’t really give a shit about anyone else as long as they’re alright.
We live in a different world where the only thing a lot of people aspire to is to buy more material goods and are more likely to vote on the X factor than at an election. Society is dumbing down, but if the majority are happy then who cares. Sad really. Funny old world innit?

The Labour Party. Now there’s a conundrum. Always been a union member from the day I started work and still am now. I’ve been a shop steward several times in several places and found out that things are never straightforward.
My beef with the Party is looking at MP’s who couldn’t possibly have a clue how ordinary people manage. Their ‘empathising’ is a joke, it’s ranks are filled with people who talk the talk but have never in most cases walked the walk.
The comfy political middle classes, public school faux prols and pushy gobshites are in control. Something else that’s sad also.

Well that was down to Bliar , filling the party up with female MP's and or careerists. No problem with female MP's , they can be all female for me, as long as they are there on merit, not parachuted in, which by changing the rules within the party, Bliar effectively did.

Announce Tory

And don't forget Gaitskell in the 1950s. The right have always been at it. The left have only ever been guilty of defending themselves and the party not taking it over. If the right want to run the party why don't the anti Corbyn brigade put their money were their mouth is and join the party en masse ? because they lack the passion of those on the left that's why.

The party is stuck between a rock and a hard place, not enough support for Corbyn, and as you rightly say, to change anything you need to be in power, so the only way into power would be to clone another Bliar, but it was him who was responsible for the birth of momentum and the type of politics that has divided and arguably destroyed the country, every bit as much as Thatcher did , and the sort of person most young people detest. So what do we do?.

To quote Martin Luther King - The great stumbling block is the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom ... Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.“

You say the left are only defending themselves and not trying to take the party over, yet every time I make any attempt to discuss the matter I get told "we are taking our party back". Indeed you yourself have said this to me. You also suggest that the right should join the party en masse and become a collective force to fight Tory policies. That's a good idea on the face of it but you don't really want the right in the party do you, although I welcome the notion that you have realised that we have to make the Labour party electable and to do that the party needs co operation from the right.
Therefore can we stop calling people closet Tories.
The left have not got a monopoly on passion. I have just as much passion for this as anyone from the left. If I was a closet Tory I would keep quiet and just let the Labour party make themselves more and more unelectable.
The bottom line is we have to be elected to be in a position to make changes and to get elected we have to be together and to achieve togetherness we need tolerance of each others views, but more importantly we need to convince the electorate that we are worth their support.
On a footnote, if we finally agree as a party that there is a problem, we have to agree that it is the problem of all of us and get away from the blame culture of bleating on about who is to blame. We all are to blame, we all are responsible and we all have to be heard and our views respected. We have to change the public perception that we are unelectable.

Taking the party back, because the moderates wont compromise or meet the left halfway. The left are the passionate ones, not saying you aren't but in general its the left who deliver leaflets, knock on doors , speak out in pubs, not the moderates. Our local party in Blackhall has only around 40 members, yet under Bliar it was around 100, I wonder which side of the fence the 60 who have not renewed their membership were on?. You only allowed Corbyn to stand as a token gesture to the left, that at that time was about broken, but just like all the other votes the smug thought they would win, Scottish Independence, Brexit, North East Assembly etc, the genie was let out of the bottle and they regretted it, had they known the outcome they would never of let the left put forward a candidate, as usual they underestimated the mood of the members, members who wanted change and were sick of the wishy washy politics of the moderate tory lite neo-liberal free market capitalists.

As for your footnote, I agree entirely, but I think its the right who need to hold out the hand of friendship rather than the other way around, the left have always left the door open for the party to come together. The party cant just be a neo liberal play thing with the left just there as a sleeping partner.

There is no one more dangerous than your self proclaimed ‘liberal’ when challenged. They’ll tell you how to live but never question their opinions.

I've always struggled with the term "liberal".
I'm also wary of someone who advocates direct action ( Martin Luther King)
Hitler exercised direct action against the Jews and indeed against anyone and everything in his path.
The IRA and other groups exercised direct action.
In those circumstances I can't say I am in favour of it.
Anybody who advocates direct action in my earshot is going to have to explain what he means by it.

This : Attempt to achieve some objective without going through the normal channels of communication, grievance procedure, or decision making.

In my book, taking or attempting to take something by force, from people who wont negotiate , compromise and would use violence against you. Not ideal and I normally dont advocate civil disobedience, but sometimes needs must.