Agreed, having clauses where any player sales going in to Sage's bank account is absolutely ludicrous, what would even be the point in existing when anything good comes about just go's straight out of the club never to be seen again. If we ever got a plum FA Cup draw the money made from that would probably go the same way.

If the club goes into liquidation then presumably all 'sell on' clauses will fall. Any phoenix club won't get a penny. If Blackledge is only going to get these fees for us to retain our current pyramid status then I don't see the problem. I agree that before any money is raised from fans the Trust need to be able to set out who is in the consortium and at what %. I do foresee a problem with a token trust representative on the board as they will be bound by confidentiality and will not be able to tell trust members the full story and will simply be seen as part of the 'establishment' and take the flack accordingly. So, we need to see details of the parties making up the consortium and the outline terms of the agreement before we can realistically be expected to provide funding.

Mr Derwent. You have a pm

Not convinced by this. I think that there would be a lot of people sack it off if we were much further down the pub leagues, even if they were to come back later should we manage a few promotions back to this level.

Personally I think I would probably still go to games, but being honest I’m not 100% convinced that I definitely would and if others are to be equally honest I believe that there are many more thinking the same.

Could we see the business plans the consortium have and the Trust one to run a Phoenix club and compare them both. It will come down to whether the addl money needed to keep us in the National league (whichever one it is) is worth the drop to the Northern league. It must be at least £850,000 the predicted losses for 18/19, probably more. If the NDA will not be lifted by Pools what would happen if it was ignored?

Surely the problem with the phoenix option is that we don't know/can't be sure of the likely cost because the situation with the ground could change during admin or liquidation?

If there is a chance of hanging on in the national league and being completely certain of keeping the Vic that probably has to be worth a go even if some of the people involved are a bit dodgy.

The council have apparently assured continuity at the Vic

I've been told that but I'm not sure I'd trust them. If Pools were in admin or liquidated I bet they'd listen to bids from other interested parties, particularly if they could offer some wider regeneration perks when the Trust couldn't.

Really good point that mate and one I hadn't thought of. What you are saying is if say Motherwell sell Carson over the Summer then Pools will only get their share of the money if HUFC still exists and if half of that goes to Blackledge then it is still better than us getting nothing. If Sage are only getting a cut of deals done by Watson it is probably only going to involve about half a dozen players anyway as nobody is going to pay money for any existing players and it is money the Phoenix Club wouldn't have got anyway. I still don't like the idea of Blackedge getting a penny but sounds like not such a bad a deal as we thought.

This, along with what I asked above, is the type of stuff that I need to know before putting anything in.

I’ve happily put ten and twenty quids in buckets without knowing exactly what it is going to be spent on but before I even consider handing over any significant wedges of cash then not only do I want to know what is going to be done with it and what it will achieve but also who the fuck is going to be spending it. An unnamed mystery investor and no financial transparency of the business plan doesn’t cut it for me whether Jeff says it’s all ok or not.

Same here Mr Ripper. I'm not totally against the idea and some of it makes more sense than it did last night but I wont be putting anything in until we know who is in this consortium and where the money would be going. Still think Sage are going to get a cut somewhere along the line and will also want money up front. Until then sounds like we will just be walking straight into another mess.

There are a lot of questions here. There is no guarantee that a trust run club would be allowed to use the Vic. Given the current divisions, I'd bet there'd be others that plan to set up a new club, and they'd also want to play at the Vic. If they're backed by an investor, who knows what may happen.

So the mystery businessman wants 51%, just like Mr Singh did when he tried to get back in at Darlo last year.
Looks to me like Stelling is willing to take anyones money to get this pushed through.
How would you all react if you heard Coxall was trying to get in with another club? I bet you would all warn your fellow football fans against any involvement with him.
I can bet it would end up exactly as it is at York where the "investor" gradually gets more control as the other shareholders cant put money in at the required amounts their shareholding calls for.

Not sure Singh can be compared to Coxall, Singh has 1) money and 2) an actual business that exists. When it comes to running a football club I don't know the ins and outs of his time at Darlo but the fact he splits Darlo fans is enough for me to doubt he is the right man for Pools, certainly at this time.

He came back last year promising investment in the team as he "believed in Martin Gray" but what his exact motives were only he knows. When he had control of us when we entered administration it was a similar scenario, sold season tickets on the back of a promise he was here for at least another year, then when the funds started to run out he pulled the plug. He was always more interested in the land around the stadium so he could develop it and make money off that. I would guess thats all he is after from this deal with Pools too, land to develop. He's not a Hartlepool fan, he's not a Darlo fan, if anything he's a Boro fan who can sniff an opportunity to make money, just like George Houghton did before him at Darlo.

About 7 people have sniffed a money making opportunity with that land behind pools and the mill house baths site but no ones got anywhere near. That lands probably the prime reason for Coxall, TMH, Sage etc all being here in the first place.

Christ knows why.

Can understand the differing views here and being honest I have donated to the trust but with my heart rather than my head.

However one argument missing relating to the phoenix club....yes it looks there will be a ground, but I have also read that liquidation could lead to fixture and fittings being removed. Now I know that won’t be every piece of the ground, but surely a consideration that could end up being a barrier to these plans?

I’ve asked that question regarding fixtures and fittings previously and whether or not The Trust have provisional costs for having to purchase them from any liquidator in order to try and fund raise for such an eventuality but I’ve yet to see an answer.

I can't think of any fixtures or fittings that have much in the way of value. A lot of the ground improvements were built with grants. The floodlights are saleable as long as you can find a club in the 1970's. There is ironworks that you could strip out of the Millhouse stand and sell for almost the cost of removing them!

I guess that the portakabins that for the offices and hospitality areas are disposable but could be replaced on a cheap deal from Phil Dunn. I honestly can't see that much that can be sold.

I asked questions last night on the Trust's Facebook page and the truth of the matter is that we aren't going to get transparency on a number of issues because of the NDAs that have been signed.

For me, that means we've got to decide whether to show a bit of faith in the fellow fans who are on the Trust board.

They're all dedicated Pools supporters and between them they've done a huge amount of unpaid work over the last few years. Over the last few months in particular it must have been a massive commitment. The idea of putting money in without knowing for certain who the Teesside business man doesn't feel right but I've ended up asking myself why people like the Trust board members would ask us to take the risk.

The only answer I can come up with is that having seen the books, read the SD report on the finances, and sat in all the meetings with all the interested parties, they think the Stelling consortium is our best/last hope. Of course, they could turn out to be wrong but these are genuine Pools fans who are far better informed about the situation than I am.

I'm not at all sure about the mystery business man (particularly not if it is Raj Singh) and I sometimes have my doubts about Jeff Stelling. The council worry me as do all the possible surprise twists and turns that admin or liquidation might throw up. The one thing I'm certain about is that the Trust board are proper football supporters doing the best they can so I'm chipping in and giving them my backing.

There is a good chunk of scrap value on all four sides of the ground. Not mega bucks but enough to make it worthwhile selling it off to the highest bidder. Have The Trust done any homework to work out how much money they would need in order to be the highest bidder?

Fair play to you Mr Toulouse but I don’t know enough to be able to lump significant amounts of my own money in on the say so of other people who are not offering me any guarantees as to what it will be used for or what it will actually achieve. If I had the information I could make my own mind up but in the absence of that information I’m not prepared to gamble on pure blind faith alone.

Everybody has to make their own mind up Mr Ripper and I certainly wouldn't suggest anybody was less of a Pools fan for taking your position . One thing I should say is that the suggested donation is a lot less than I used to spend watching Pools every season when I was in the UK. As an exile there's a bit of an automatic saving on Pools spending so its instead of rather than as well as - I reckon all Poolies abroad should consider that.

This pretty much sums up my views as well. There isn't time to deliberate, set up meetings etc etc, either we support the Trust board on the basis of the discussions they have been involved in and the books they have seen or we don't. If we do there is a chance HUFC can continue and may even stay in the current league or we don't and drop down about 5 levels with everything that entails.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I will definitely give nothing to this but it won’t be anywhere near as much as I might have contributed with more information available to make a more informed decision.

I see both sides of this discussion, and won't disagree with anyone on their choice when the music stops. My head says more info needed, my heart says do something now. My gut feeling is support the TRUST board decision. Even without disclosure etc, no pun intended but I trust the TRUST.

As an aside people are elected to make decisions. I have the same faith in those people as I did recently.

It does feel that we need more information, some of which at least won't be covered by the NDA. The identity (and motivation) of the other consortium members being a key one.... if it is Raj Singh as rumoured, alarm bells will ring; if it was for example Musgrave (admittedly unlikely) then maybe less, as he was at least up front and realistic in his statement when he pulled out. For the moment though it feels like we're being asked to hitch our wagon to what may be a juggernaut that will take us up the leagues, or might turn out to be a battered old jalopy with no engine that we're then all expected to push along....

There's questions too about how much debt will remain and how it will be serviced. For all the talk of Blackledge waiting until he can get a cut of FL Payments, or transfer clauses - well, what happens to the debt in the meantime? Will it just be parked at zero interest, or will it be increasing? What happens if we never receive sell-on clauses (Carson to Rangers as the saviour of Pools didn't happen...) - does the debt still sit there, accruing interest? Would we reach a point where actually we could never afford to get promoted to the FL? Is there a legally-binding contract to say that he'll wait - or is it a case of reserving the right to demand repayment at some future date regardless?

I don't completely object to paying Blackledge something, but if he's not prepared to write off a reasonable proportion of the debt all we are doing is postponing the crisis which is at least partly of his own making - it's not reasonable to expect the fans to pay for him having slipped up on his due diligence, his error so he needs to share the pain. I got conned out of £40 the other week - I'm annoyed partly with myself, but I'm not going to demand someone else pays me back.....

Do the stands count as fixtures and fittings? would of thought they would. What about crush barriers? no barriers, would of thought no football, at a reasonable level anyway.

Like others, I'm not convinced playing on The Vic is as cast iron as some seem to think.

This Raj Singh character , assuming he is the consortium, he must be a football fanatic or someone with ulterior motives. Took on Darlo, couldn't handle the pressure so left. Then decides to have another bash at Darlo, but the fans don't want him back. Now he wants to have a stake in Pools. Why a stake ? why not buy the club full stop?. He sounds like someone who is either on the make or just wants the status and celebrity that comes with being part of fronting up a football club. Either way he doesn't sound like the sort of person we want or need.

I can answer that one as I asked him that question directly at the meeting between him, Stelling, Craig Hignett, Trev Bennison and myself. No point in challenging me on the answers, I am just passing it on.

Why? because he is a football fan, he enjoys being involved and doesn't want to see Pools go to the wall.
There is the possibility of getting involved in some development around the ground.
He won't support the club alone, he will only go forward with his end if the fans are onside both support wise and financially. This is what he wanted from Darlo fans and their refusal to chip in was why he walked away first time round.

I found him a perfectly reasonable bloke and to be fair, he can hardly asset strip the club. I suspect that there is a also a bit of putting two fingers up to Darlo fans who gave him grief but that's very secondary.

Thanks for that John.

I am sure he is or comes across as a reasonable bloke, you wouldn't make a good conman if you didn't and we know how a few fell for another so called reasonable blokes charm, COXHALL. They are all football fans aren't they, Abramovich, Short, Coxhall, they just don't hitch hike to Swansea for a Tuesday night match. Development? that's an interesting one. Stick two fingers up at Darlo! okay I'll give him that one, anything to spice up our derby games next season.

If someone has £250,000 and wants in, what are the next steps?

If raj singh has money to invest in pools good on him. He will be part of a group that is savibg pools not killing us like some of the previous people connected to the club. If he turns into mr shady in two years time at least you have two more years to prepare.

Contact Jeff Stelling directly. If you have someone I'll give you Jeff's contact details.

Thats exactly how he was with us, didnt want to see the club go to the wall so bought was left from Houghton.
Said all the right things to get the fans onside. Always complained about having to fund it all himself and had Pallister as his man to try and find extra investment. Always complained about attendances and to be fair he had a point although the prices charged were too high for what was on offer.
However, after the trophy win he said he would give it another season but pulled the plug after only a few months, a bit like Sage have done to you this season. The less said about his actions after that, the better. He says he was badly advised. He was saying one thing on the radio (re the football share) and another thing off air. Said he didnt want a penny back but blocked the CVA because he wanted a cut of all transfer sell ons. Wouldnt trust the guy at all, if he said it was raining I would go outside and check. Its that bad with him.

We are going down this season anyway, if not definitely next season. A phoenix club would have to start at the bottom, NL2. It shouldn't be too difficult to climb within a few seasons to were we are going to end up anyway next season or the one after. After that things , as Darlo have discovered will be a lot more difficult, to climb that last couple of leagues back into the football league. Playing at The Vic would obviously give us an advantage. So don't see the problem with a Phoenix club in relation to climbing the leagues up until Evo Stik Premier , where we soon will be anyway. Darlo did it without Feethams/Echo Arena and also had to travel to Bishop Auckland which would of knocked at least 500 off their gates I would of thought.

I agree, phoenix club the way to go.
We don't want a club that still owes money to these crooks nor some dodgy businessman calling the shots!
A new club run within its means, within budget and we start at the bottom, a good fan base, the Vic and slowly but surely work our way back up the leagues.

This is the part that I don't get with all those who want to hang on to the current legal entity. £1.8m to fund the next couple of years apparently to stay where we are. A lot of that is to pay existing excessive contracts and liabilities. Then you have Christ knows what else coming out of the woodwork and a long term liability of Sage's debt, not to mention HMRC.

The alternative is a completely fresh start knowing exactly where you stand and no future liabilities. Strip out the emotion and its a no brainer.

What is stopping the trust from forming a new club right now?

Most of us still holding out for a miracle. A new owner who is buckled, has good business sense and track record, integrity and knows as much or if not more about football than most of the fans. We can but dream

A new millionaire owner stupid enough to throw away the first two million in exchange for a rusty nail, but has good business sense ...

I suggest you ask these question on the hust fb rather than on here as I am the only person still comes on hete from trust board.
Cannot divulge too much due to nda but we are requesting a relaxing to allow certain info to be divulged.
No money will be given to anybody until agreements have been verified by legal reps and if amount cannot be reached we have a pot to go towards a pboenix if no other solution.

Interesting to note Mr Blue is piggy backing the trust fund raising by stating that money can be donated to trust or their fund as it goes to the same place which is factually incorrect.

Where have you asked this question?

Anybody else have question they need answering can direct them to membership@hufcsupporterstrust.org.uk and I will forward to the relevant board member.

Definitely on here weeks ago and possibly on the Trust fb page too. To me it’s high on the priority list if contingency planning for the worst case scenario.

I can answer it.

Sage have a charge on everything at Pools. They are at liberty to call in their debt at any time. If it came to liquidation then they would strip out everything that isn’t nailed down. The can take the stands, portacabins, gates etc. Whether it is Financally viable is another matter but certainly they can legally.

I can answer it.

Sage have a charge on everything at Pools. They are at liberty to call in their debt at any time. If it came to liquidation then they would strip out everything that isn’t nailed down. The can take the stands, portacabins, gates etc. Whether it is Financally viable is another matter but certainly they can legally.

So The Trust or whoever would therefore need to have some money put aside to buy the stuff from Sage and to have an approximation of the value of the stuff. Is anything happening about that, e.g. talking to a company about a long term sponsorship deal for a stand that they pay to rescue from the scrap man?

I would be interested to know what the lease with the council allows Sage to remove. It would be a strange lease that allowed a tennant to wreck the place.