When is the right time to sack a manager? This is a results business so when things aren't going well, the manager will pretty much always get the boot. But is this right? This is a general question not just linked to Harrison.

If, as a manager, you set your side up to play a certain way against a certain opposition and if the players don't do this, who is to blame? The manager for not getting player buy-in to the plan? Or the player for not being professional and carrying out their job? If you tell your back line to drop a little deeper to protect against their lightning quick forward but they push up and get tight, he then does the centre half for pace and the team concedes, whose fault is that?

You could train the players all week to do certain things, play a certain way, make them aware of how your opponents play and all looks good in training but when it comes to game day, the players don't do as they have been told...whose fault is that?

You need to bear in mind that a manager is always limited to the players at his disposal, be it because of your location, wage budget, perceived style of play etc etc or of course because the manager has signed a fucking donkey. Anyway, players don't go out to fuck things up deliberately (in the main anyway) but it is absolutely nailed on that they will fuck up and the lower down the pyramid you go the more likely they are to fuck up. Is that the managers fault? Player error? Absolutely fucking not. I didn't blame my manager if I mistimed a challenge in the box and conceded a needless penalty. That's my mistake. If the manager tells the team what the opponent is likely to do at set pieces and sets them up to defend that set piece and the players fuck it up, that's not the managers fault.

So, for me, to get the decision about when to give the manager the boot is to weigh up everything and look at what is going wrong and why. The things that can affect a side outside the managers control are (but not limited to)
- injuries to key players (how much better were we with Watson in the team? We looked like we'd piss the league...well, almost)
- player error. Happens every game. Didn't Sterling miss a few sitters yesterday for Man City? How much is he paid again? It's not and never has been linked to how much someone is paid or how good they are. It is a fact players will make game changing mistakes.
- linked to player error is the effect that error has on the game. You're absolutely battering your opponent but their keeper is having an absolute blinder, they break and go in 1-0 up. Changes the game. Heads could drop - this isn't just down to the manager to get them going, they need to have it in them to fight and battle.
- bad days. All clubs/players have these. And it's not just the managers fault. For whatever reason, sometimes nothing works for anyone. Doesn't matter how many yards you cover, you and your teammates are fucking bollocks. Happened when I played last season. First 10 minutes I thought 'we'll win this easy, they're shite'. We couldn't string two passes together. There was no apparent reason for it, we were collectively 'off it'.
- officials. Again, like player error. Refs/linesmen can change games. No further explanation is required. You all know this. Again the manager has no control over this.
- pressure. Some players can handle it, some can't. You won't always know this until the shit hits the fan. Some will step up to the plate, others will go missing. Admittedly, once known, the manager should do something about it. Get rid, drop them, try to work out their issues/overcome them but what if your option is a player whose even fucking worse, it's September and there are no loans available? You're fucked.

I think you need to look at the manager and their philosophy and if you believe in what they are trying to do but just don't have the right players to make it work, you stick by them through thick and thin. If they have lost the plot and the pressure has got to them, it's time for them to step down. I also think if you have a really bad run of results you could justify the sacking by saying a change could have the desired effect re: resetting the mood in the camp etc

Managers aren't perfect, they will make mistakes. How much time should they be given to learn from the mistakes?

We've all seen some truly desperate performances this season but I for one don't buy into the idea that good crowds, big playing budget = promotion. It NEVER has. It definitely helps, that goes without saying. But there are no guarantees.

Also, losing against shite opposition happens everywhere. I don't need to give examples surely? Any/all non-league sides should get spanked when playing their supposed betters. This just doesn't always happen as you're well aware but when it's YOUR club the reaction is off the scale. Just take a step back when you've calmed down a bit and put in perspective. One result a shite manager/players does not make. It happens all the time.

Our demise against Macclesfield had people on here going on about how we're fucking shite because we couldn't see the game out. Yes, we should've been able to do that. But for fucks sake, IT HAPPENS, that's why we all go. It's unpredictable. I'm sure Bayern Munich fans were fairly confident of beating Man Ure when 1-0 up with fucking seconds left in the European Cup Final.....if one of the best teams in Europe with one of the best squads of players in Europe can lose (arguably) the biggest club match in Europe with seconds left, it should be no surprise Pools can lose at home to Macclesfield with 10 minutes left.

People also go on about 'losing the dressing room'. Ok, the manager should go if this happens but how the fuck does the man in the street know if this is the case? Because of how they play? In some cases yes. I would've called for Harrison to go if we'd had back to back performances like Fylde because that really was the worst I have ever seen but he got a response. But, unless you have inside information, you have no idea if a manager has lost the dressing room. None. But it's trotted out like those saying it can tell from watching us lose a few games.

I am not saying Harrison should stay or go. I don't know. I know what I see and sometimes it's truly horrific but it has been for years and it can't surely be purely down to incompetent managers. I have also seen us play really well. Maidstone at home for example.

Like I have said, I don't know what to do about Harrison. The ideal scenario for me would be that the chairman has a handle on what is going on behind the scenes in terms of whether we have a happy camp or not and if not and it's the managers doing, he goes. If not and the chairman can see and has an understanding of where we are trying to go and believes in it/we just need to the right players, then stick by him, support him and try to give him the tools he needs to complete the job. I am not sure if the chairman (woman) has this level of knowledge and if not, it's probably guess work.....which helps no one.

Fucking long one this, well done if you're still reading, cheers......and I could type loads more but can't be arsed.

I wonder If Man City would loan us Pep....Just for a week!

Agree with that like. I think people see it as black and white, i.e sack the manager if doing shite as that’s always the answer.

But there are much more considerations than that

haha, I would love to see how he'd fair in the lower leagues...he's clearly a quality manager though because he's been successful everywhere he's been even if he has had money on tap...

Peps first full season was unacceptable. Clearly the Man City owners had a plan and stuck to it which is now paying dividends.

I always thing at our level a manager's most important decision, which normally makes or breaks his tenure, is his coaching staff.

Whether Jenkins is a decent coach or not is irrelevant, he's inexperienced to coaching in the men's game.

Harrison should have brought someone in with experience and that will be his biggest mistake

We aren't Man City.

That applies to all managers in the game. It's a results/performance business, cruel, but a basic fact. No one wants to see any manager of their club fail, that would be ludicrous, but....... how long do we hang fire? Hesitation and indecision can be just as fatal to any club?

Excellent post Mr Shilts. I am one of the undecided ones regarding Harrison but as i have said in a previous thread we need to wait until after the two Gateshead games and depending on results then a big decision needs to be made......get rid or persevere with him.

Excellent post Mr Shilts covering lots of pertinent questions with possible outcomes.
I’m aware of the growing numbers of Pools fans calling for Harrison to go; I’m not in the “get rid/ he must go now” camp. I remember that only very recently Craig Harrison was given Manager of the Month award; us fans were dancing and jigging into Victoria Park! Yes we’ve had some bad bad results since but it’s time for a reality check not time for knee jerk reaction!

Maidenhead and Gateshead are next to us in the league and Chester in the 4th relegation spot. Minimum points needed from these 4 games.................6 i would say but the performance of the players may be more important.

Most of what you say I agree with, however the last ten minutes against Macclesfield sums him up, it happened right in front of him, he said afterwards that they started to press the left back and were getting on top, so why not do something about it?, bring on Adams to shore it up?, no, he waited until we 2-1 down and brings on 2 attackers with 2 minutes left!!!!

That is my concern along with blaming the players, stand up and grow a pair and admit he fucked up with tactics or changes, play the kids instead of some of the tripe, practice free kicks in training, practice shooting from distance!

Look at Sunderland yesterday, hadn`t won in a year, brought 2 kids on with 20 minutes to go and boom, they have no fear like the 29 year old who hasn`t scored for 3 months and it is playing on his mind, if we have no youmg ones who are good enough then we don`t need a youth team policy and save a fortune!

That applies to all managers in the game. It's a results/performance business, cruel, but a basic fact. No one wants to see any manager of their club fail, that would be ludicrous, but....... how long do we hang fire? Hesitation and indecision can be just as fatal to any club?[/quote]

**Apologies, cocked up the editing...Mr Snowy's bit is above, mine below.**

Yes, you're right, it is a results business but it also doesn't mean we need to blame the manager for everything all the time and bin him every time we have a bad spell just because that's how football is. There are no rules regarding manager sackings, we don't have to conform.

You're right about when to bin them, hence my original post...because I just don't know.

I would like to be able to trust those involved with the club that they know what's going on and take steps if the manager is crumbling behind the scenes. I aren't close enough to know so all I can go by are the performances but as per my original post, performances on their own aren't enough to sack a manager necessarily, there are possibly many reasons why we're failing.

Eddie Howe is a great manager and was given time, Sean Dyche is doing, quite simply, a remarkable job and was given time....Burnley were even relegated during his time there and wasn't given the bullet - I am fairly certain that, given our history, we'd have definitely got rid.

But like you can't lay all the blame for failure at the managers door, neither can they take all the credit when it goes right either so Dyche and Howe can just be grateful they didn't sign professionals who aren't very professional (for example).

Now I aren't saying Harrison is as good as those two, I am just saying the bloke has, effectively, been in the job for a matter of months. It started badly, then we were unbeaten for ages and now it's gone a bit pear-shaped again. Is that enough to get rid?

There are loads of examples to back up either argument Mr Butt re: bringing on a couple of kids and they change the game. There will be just as many, if not more, examples of where it hasn't worked and fans go apeshit at the manager for trying an untested kid.

I agree with blaming players in public, that's very rarely a good thing.

I don't kniow about playing the kids. I will probably get booed to fuck but Kenton Richardson, as much as I want him to do well because I support the team/club, he is a bit weak...which he will be, he's a kid but the point I am making is I don't think playing the kids will sort us out....we could try it...but I am sceptical.

Playing a bit of devils advocate here...

We’ve sacked managers non stop for 10 years. And it’s worked once, Ronnie Moore, when he performed a miracle.

If every other manager keeps failing at this club, maybe it’s not the managers?


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Yep, definitely a long post but I don't understand why sitting on the fence has to be a short post? Just sharing my views. I am ready to go with whatever proves to be the strongest argument. I don't have the answers or a solid view either way, hence the post, although I can't believe binning managers every two minutes is the answer. There is a reason or 10 why we are where we are and it definitely can't be just the manager.

The top 10 has changed countless times this season so I think that argument is flawed. It's as open a Conference/National League/whatever as I can recall for many years. Usually at least one team runs away with it.

As I have posted before, I will never understand why any fan would ever feel that their team should just have to turn up to win. Never. On paper, we all know who should win what games but how often does that happen? If games ran anything like to form we'd all be millionaires because our 5 game accumulators would pay out every week.

Managers usually succeed at clubs who are on the up, and fail at clubs who are on the slide. A bad manager can succeed at a club on the up, a good manager can fail at a club on the slide. Wonder what happens though when a bad manager or a manager out of his depth takes a job at a club on the slide? answers on a postcard please, in fact don't bother , we know the answer.

Harrison is out of his depth, not even learning from his mistakes, he has to go, though as we are a club on the slide, and the slide may not have stopped yet. I cant see us bringing in anyone better, 1, because we cant afford, 2, because the person running the club hasnt got a fookin clue about running a football club

That's sort of my point. I think at some point there needs to be more to the manager getting the boot than simply results (if that's how they're sacked now). Fair enough if the players fucking hate the manager and won't play for him but as you say, there is surely more to our decline than each manager being shite.

And it's that I think the club needs to work out. Spend a bit of time actually analysing why it's going wrong and coming to an informed decision about how to rectify the problem(s) rather than assuming the manager is a pleb.

I've refrained from having a pop simply because he's working in a far from positive environment. The stuff behind the scenes is bound to have an effect on all all staff as it would in any business. They are concerned about paying the rent and feeding their kids. Some would say that this is exactly the point you should give everything you have but people are all different. Some have more gumption than others and it doesn't take many for the negativity to be contagious.

So basically what you are all saying is what I was saying 10 years ago , and I got slaughtered on here for it , FFS!

Horden, what were you saying 10 years ago?

Dont know what to do about Harrison? give him Gateshead games, FFS! why the fook bother writing an essay?.

This is not an excellent post, far from it. Selective using of clubs like Bayern , Man City, Sunderland etc.

Bayern may of lost 99 euro cup but would of won many honours before and after that. Man City create chance after chance so even if Sterling misses 6 chances he will probably score at some point in the game. Sunderland had to win sometime, wtf has this got to do with a mickey mouse club with a bunch of pussycats as players in the National League?.

I could counteract all these arguments with better ones of my own but frankly I cant be fookin arsed anymore.

Use the search facility unless the Russians have wiped anything before 2010 clean

This. Yesterday I didn't check the Workington score till a couple of hours after the game, because it's not a competition that I'm remotely interested in. Much more important is that it was yet another defeat against part-time opposition.

Personal attacks on Craig Harrison are beside the point - the fact is he and his coaching team no longer seem capable of getting the best out of the playing squad. Mr. I's comment about ongoing behind-the-scenes distractions is a fair one I'm sure, but if the likes of Morecambe can show guts and resolve in season after season of financial uncertainty, it's not asking too much of Pools or their manager to do the same.

What the fans can see is that the team's confidence is shot, and with every week that passes it's harder to believe that the current management team can stop the rot. A couple of half-decent results won't get Pools anywhere near a play-off place - the only goal that matters in this or any other season that we are out of the football league.

He's not going to resign but in all probability he will be sacked - my guess is still that it will happen early in the New Year.

I believe the manager is genuinely trying to get Pools 'playing football'. However the lower down the football pyramid one goes, the poorer the skill level of the players. In consequence goals are forthcoming in the lower reaches because of MISTAKES, not the skill of the attacking forwards. Hence teams that are prepared to put pressure on defenders by shear effort and energy can force the errors that lead to goals. Pools under Harrison are playing the sort of football that is more likely to get us out of the NL in a downwards direction rather than upwards.

I had a chat with Harrison on Weds night at the Youth Cup game. He said he would be fielding a full strength side, lying git, and I'm not sure Ledger was injured either. He came across as quite meek and someone who is out of his depth, probably being influenced by others. He is out of his depth, this job was too much for him, would of been better taking a job in league below before a job like this, or a club in our league with less expectations, likewise could of assisted a more experienced manager at pools, but no doubt yet again we went for the cheapest option.

Just when you think you have seen the worst manager in pools history, another one comes along.

He has to go. If he stays best result we can hope for at Gateshead is P-P. Hope its called off, give new manager an extra game to get 3 pts. Maidenhead on Satuirday, could this be the meltdown game like Cambridge same time last season?.

The 'meltdown' game for me last season was Barnet away when we threw away a 2-0 lead to lose 3-2 and Nathan Thomas picked up a long term injury (at 2-0!) when he was on fire and probably would have secured enough points on his own in those following weeks to have had us well safe.

I reckon we'll beat Maidenhead on Saturday. I'm not sure what that will change though!

Jesus wept.

Not that it really matters but I never mentioned Gateshead.

Man City and Bayern Munich were examples people would be familiar with when making my points. If it helps, I will use the example of the team my lad used to play for then you have from grass roots to top European clubs.....they were losing 4-1 at half time and the centre forward had just been sent off for decking the opposition keeper. They had not won a game this season or got a point for that matter so everything pointed to more humiliation. They ran out 5-4 winners. You honestly couldn't make it up. It was fucking great to watch. We even had a bit of snow......lovely. Is that the opposition managers fault? Or did the momentum completely swing in the favour or my lads old team because their opposition's arses went and his old side's tails were up?

Also, I haven't given a solid opinion. I was posting to get others views because I think it's a more complex issue than just shouting 'sack the manager, he's a useless 'lovely lovely person'' yet you've gone massively on the defensive and type like you're exasperated. I suggest, if that's the case, you have a large glass or 12 of 'chill the fuck out' and post something other than views borne out of anger.

I agree with this.

Reminds me of what Sam Collins said a couple of season ago.

You need to press the ball carrier because at this level they can't cope with it and go backwards. I would certainly look for us to do this more. I also completely agree that we are very slow in our approach play which in my opinion has let us down on a regular basis. Having all the possession and doing fuck all with it is pointless.

For me we should be playing a very direct style of play with pressing all over the park.

Playing a bit of devils advocate here...

We’ve sacked managers non stop for 10 years. And it’s worked once, Ronnie Moore, when he performed a miracle.

If every other manager keeps failing at this club, maybe it’s not the managers?


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To be fair Mr MDKMF, we have no real idea if they are getting the best out of the players or not, perhaps they are and the players just aren't up to it? Who knows? What I can say is Scott Harrison is still as error prone as he always has been (barring his first full season with us) and the likes of Woods and Hawkins still work their bollocks off so what are the current crop of coaches not doing?

As for confidence, I quite agree. Confidence plays an enormous part in a teams success. I also accept that a new manager can give the players a much needed boost/kick up the arse but barring Moore, how long have this group of players been able to maintain it?

Finally, results. We currently sit 10 points off relegation and 7 off the play offs. A couple of half decent results could very well get us near the play offs.

Sorry...finally....please stop with the part time bollocks. Please. It is irrelevant. It shouldn't be, but it is.

You know when people say ‘this will be a 10 pager’ about a thread, this one will be if everyone keeps requoting Shilts original post

I would feel very sad for Harrison as a person if he gets the bullet, he’s not exactly in a stable club, on other hand we have a massive squad and he doesn’t seem to pick the same 11 each week injuries aside. Worrying not to seem to know yet what his best team or formation is.

I don’t comment on the games as I’m in exile and not there, on the other hand I must be the only person actually looking forward to Saturday when I’m home for Christmas as I haven’t been subject in person to some of the horror shows

Sounds like only one person is exasperated and angry here , and it ain't me, I give up on Pools been a success long ago. This is just what I predicted 7 or 8 years ago , so why should I get angry?.

I do agree though, that we should be more direct, play the dreaded dinosaur , stuck in the 70s 4-4-2 formation, with fast , skilful players on the wings, but I appreciate we haven't the personnel to perfect that formation, but its the only way forward at this level.

It's clearly not the only way to play at this level, very few teams at any level these days play with out and out wingers the game has changed. You just need decent players with hunger, desire and belief and a manager who can harbour that. You need to be able press and win second balls for 90 minutes at this level, be organised and together. The standard is shite so that will go a long way for me. Our club is a mess though and although that does go beyond whoever the manager right now, and we the fact we need to stop sacking managers we still should be doing miles better than this surely?

Horden, if you did all that requoting deliberately fair play

Yep, agreed, definitely should be doing better but I am caught between 'it'll take time to get it right' and 'the manager needs changing'

It will come back though at some point, things usually do, why can we not be the first to bring back wingers?. Get what you say though, basically in a nutshell HARD WORK !!!. That is what Man City have added to their game this season and they will probably win the title by 20 points. Watched Man U today huff and puff to get the same 3 pts as City did yesterday, but City on another level.

Harrison is out of his depth, I'm not saying this now, I thought that before season started, but in his defence behind the scenes is a clusterfook, and whoever comes in has every chance of being even worse than Harrison. Its probably behind the scenes that needs changing more than anything, put promotion on ice for 3 years and get off the pitch sorted, if only it were that easy. I just hope when Harrison is sacked, and he will be, probably in February when the usual realisation that we are in a relegation fight kick in, that Bates doesn't get the job, otherwise its change at Thornaby for Darlington time again

I was massively underwhelmed and feared the worst when he was appointed - I posted as much at the time - so I have no specific allegiance to the man I am just questioning whether when we've fired all these managers whether it's what we should be doing as it is more complex than simply shit results.

I think most with half a brain no its the decline of the club that is impacting on the failure of its managers, in a nutshell , like at the shops, buy cheap, pay twice sort of thing. What I tend to notice about clubs in decline is when a new manager is appointed how some of those associated with previous failure are not scattered , such as Collins and now Bates, same at Sunderland with Cattermole and OShea, as though they have some sort of hold over the club. In this respect at least CH was able tor bring in his own staff, but not it seems allowed to dispense with those already there, such as Hewitson and Bates.

In saying that I have little faith in anyone better being brought in , by a Chairwoman with not the foggiest idea of how to run a football club. I would even go as far to say, keep Harrison on but bring an experienced manager in to mentor him , but its all about the money or rather lack of it. A 2500 gate on Saturday wont help much.

We can go on fannying about, but the clock is ticking and we show no signs whatsoever of getting things organised. Pontificating over the causes and a thousand scenarios is beside the point, we are going around in circles and there comes a time when you have to take a cold, hard look at the position we are in. We can have a collective dream on session and put our fingers in our eyes and close our eyes but the problem won't go away.
Like I said, hesitation and delay are fatal.
Miracles don't happen, rewards are for knowing the business and doing the business. We aren't.

The squads littered with 6/10 average players who dont grab the game by the scruff of the neck and go out their way to take responsibility and win the game.

You look at the players n if they were looking at each other, who is the player that you think "he can win us this game"

I was listening to steve mcmanaman on saturday and he was saying when you get to about 25/26 players look to you to lead, to get the ball and make a difference, it got me to thinking who do we have like this? Who gets the ball, makes a run, makes a pass, takes a player on.

We just dont have people capable of that.

I dont know the ins and outs of who signed our players, who scouted them, but theres a failure in the process as it is unable to identify people who can do this, maybe we just dont have the budget i dunno.

With a squad of 29 though you could easily get rid of 10-15, and replace them with 2-3 collecting a combined wage who can do that job.

Thanks shilts. Pools are not pressuring even part-time defenders into making mistakes. How is it that we are conceding late goals when our full time professionals should be fitter than most opposition?

There was one incident in the Dover game that summed up everything that is wrong. Deverdics sprinted 40 yards from the full back position past the Pools player with the ball and whoever it was could have sent him at least 10 yards beyond the Dover backline but NO! The daft twat played the ball square. Not only passing up a good attacking chance but pissing off Deverdics as well.

Very good post in my opinion.

agree with all that pjpoolie. look back at macclesfield. they looked poor against pools till the last few mins. of the game but they had all the qualities that you have stated and are top of a real pile of shit. should have been easier for pools this season if the right man had been brought in to manage who had experiance at this level. look at lincoln last season. there manager/coach had experiance at that level, not local to the city either. others must be out there looking for a club who get thousands through the gates and not a few hundred who are more successful than pools.

Macclesfield have a player with all those qualities and he is about 58 years old, Whittaker. We haven't had a good midfield in the engine room since Paul Murray , and that has been pivotal in our demise since then. Our whole midfield is and has been poor for a number of seasons. Woods and Featherstone came from clubs below the National League and it shows.