The only reason I accept brexit is because that is what the country voted for. If, somehow, the country reversed that decision then I would accept the reversal. That is the difference between me and your average remoaner.
The voting system in this country is such that the people who bother to vote are the people who influence the result.
Instead of blaming the over 60's, why don't you blame those under 60 who didn't vote.
All the over 60's did was exercise their right to vote, whereas a lot of the under 60's didn't.
I fail to see where any criticism can be levelled at people exercising their right to vote. Criticising them purely because they didn't vote as you would like them to is puerile and the action of poor losers.
You could also criticise Cameron for calling the referendum in the first place but called it was and we all will be affected by the result one way or another.
My belief, as I have said before, is that having made the decision, we have to make the best possible fist of it and work together to that end.
If anyone is so enamoured by the lure of Europe that they still can't accept the decision of the people of the nation, then why don't you up sticks and piss off to Europe where you can live out the rest of your days content in the bosom of your fellow Eurocrats.

That's mental.

A lot of mp''s have come out and said they voted remain but as the public voted leave they just have to get on with it.

Get on with what?

Just leaving?

They all know it's daft and suicide but hey voted for it so let's kill ourselves.

If a jury found someone guilty of murder and we had the death penalty would you still execute them if 5 minutes before shooting them evidence was fund to prove their innocence

Or would you say he must die because we voted for it.

If the vote was restricted to Mp's only then fine, their decision would be final but it wasn't, so that comment is irrelevant.
Likewise in your other analogy further new evidence would probably trigger a re trial.
Cameron promised a referendum and the majority of MP's, if not all, agreed to abide by it.
I can't argue one way or the other as to whether brexit is a good or bad idea, as I haven't enough understanding of the issue, which is why I haven't done so and won't do so. My argument is that ,having allowed a referendum, we stick by it. If the people wish to have a rethink and tackle it again, I would accept that and the forthcoming decision.
You and others can't seem to grasp this and assume that because I don't jump on the remoaner band wagon it therefore means I am a brexiteer.
I am for democracy, warts and all.
I have nothing more to say really, without repeating myself, so I'm off to bed. night night.

Did you know that since the election, Corbyn has not asked one single question about Brexit during PMQ's.

Not sure what relevance that has but it suprised me !

It's 4 years till the next election. Why should Corbyn be asked anything.

He isn't invloved. Isnt in power. Didn't decide to have the referendum and is entirely blameless.

He is probably like the majority of us and didn't have a clue what it was all about.

It is amusing though how some on the right try to pin some of the blame on him. For what essentially their gross stupidity.

People in this country don't have the monopoly on stupidity.
I was recently on holiday in Majorca, a place I like and go to on a regular basis, and was astonished to find protesters in Palma demonstrating against tourism and tourists.
These people were sporting banners saying "tourists go home".
There are five to six million people from the UK alone who holiday in Majorca and even more from Germany. Without these "tourists" there surely would be a massive hole in the Island's economy.
The Spanish government collects 1.10 euros per day in tax from every adult tourist, a relic from the banking crisis. I don't know if children are subject to this tax but even if they are not, it is a massive amount of money that would be lost to the government.
I could not find anybody who could tell me what the protests were about but people who run businesses in Cala D'or, where we normally stay, were adamant that tourism was vital to their existence and that us Brits will always be welcome. EU or no EU.
The general opinion of Germans was that they need us in Europe, as they feared that they would have to make up the shortfall emanating from our exit. They also said that freedom of movement without strict controls is ludicrous. They also were convinced that no deal would be achieved as negotiations would be continuously hampered to prevent us leaving, with continuous threats of dire consequences if we do eventually leave.
I have no animosity against either camp and I share the view that the person totally responsible is Cameron who, like most politicians, thought there wasn't any chance of a brexit majority and ended up with a bloody nose. Once again proving that politicians are completely out of step with the electorate and reality itself. Then, by arrogantly calling a snap election, May followed suit. Will they ever learn????
The rest of us have been left to get on with it
On to Corbyn................he didn't really show any enthusiasm either way and still doesn't, as far as I am concerned but like one of his predecessors, Neil Kinnock, he is courting triumphalism a bit prematurely for my liking. I hate this end of conference cry of "go home and prepare for government". That's how bloody noses happen......ask Kinnock.

It is amusing though how some on the right try to pin some of the blame on him. For what essentially their gross stupidity.[/quote]
funny how those who are supposed to be far right are the same as those on the far left who actually didn,t want us to join the common market in the 70,s never mind the EU. probably the only time the ever agreed although for different reasons.

If only it were that easy. I did piss off to Europe over 30 years ago, not the least because that was one of the whole fucking points of my country's being in Europe in the first place (by the "decision of the nation", who have clearly grown stupid with age).
I'm still British. Except now it's going to be difficult to remain so because the rug is being yanked from under my feet. So excuse me if I'm of the opinion that Brexiteers can rot in hell.

It's pretty clear that Corbyn's greatest ally is Theresa May. Any half decent opponent would drive him into irrelevance in a matter of weeks At the end of the day all politicians are seeking the exact same grail.

I genuinely dont get how anyone can dislike Jeremy Corbyn.

He is a people person, one of a rare breed of politician.

His policies might not be to your taste, and his history is a little iffy on certain issues.

But so what?

Normal folk like him. Imagine that. A country run by normal folk.

That woud be unthinkable to some, who actually like to be controlled by big business.

Well thats all they know, so it must be the right way.

There is no doubt that Corbyn will alwayd try and put the people first.

He wouldnt stalk anyone or threaten them with violence, or allow banks to destroy normal folk.

Just a decent human being. With Flaws.

I don’t like Corbyn because of his comradeship with terrorists, but that is much less of a concern than the McDonnell crank and his ideology and totally fucked up calculator.

Still repeating bollocks from The Sun and Daily Mail? Must make you sick that hardly anybody believes this shite anymore. They went after Corbyn with everything they had and couldn't prove anything beyond the fact that he thinks you have to talk to people to reach agreements that end conflicts.

Still believing stuff from The Guardian and Daily Mirror? Must seem strange to you that not everybody believes everything they read in newspapers.

So are you expecting to be thrown out, Monty?

I hope it won't come to pass, but I really fear all those buggers living in Spain getting sent back over here to stretch the NHS even further if the dickheads negotiating freedom of movement lose all sight of common sense.

My Spanish brother-in-law is in the position of not being able to plan for the future as he may get made to leave the UK at some point. Which is fuucking stupid. He is a highly qualified and experienced engineer who has a master's degree in renewable energy technologies (which he paid to do at Nottingham University), apparently one of the projected growth areas in the UK economy.

So he could be sent packing in exchange for someone who is likely to be retired (therefore not contributing to the economy) and be pretty resentful about swapping life on the Costa for post-Brexit Britain with all it's shortcomings. Utter madness.

But the leave vote won. And it doesn't matter that they were lied to.

Leave won so now we all have just get on with it.

It's just that nobody really knows what IT is.

All that is clear is that by doing IT we are going to suffer the financial consequence.

Marvellous.

David Cameron's head should be on top of a spike outside of the Tower of London for calling the referendum in the first place, the single worst call in the history of our nation.

We voted to leave , we are leaving ..... Not much point complaining about it

At last a well thought out intelligent post.

I'm expecting to lie low and pretend I don't exist.
If Catalonian independence ever comes off, expect me to be one of the very first immigrants.

We voted by jury for the death penalty.

OK new evidence proves it the wrong decision but we voted and that's it.

Just got to get on with it.

In the case of brexit there is no such thing as just leaving.

That's the big problem.

Nobody still demanding we leave seems to realise that we can't just leave.

One thing ties into a hundred other things.

WE CAN'T JUST LEAVE

I read a lot of different papers for work and they all have fairly consistent positions on what is going on so it isn't hard to spot bias and allow for it. For example, The Guardian was pro-Labour but massively anti-Corbyn until the election. They've now moved to broadly pro-Corbyn but still give his critics from the Labour right a decent platform. Think they realised that they were out of sync with many of their readers and shifted the editorial line - easy enough to notice.
The problem with The Sun and Daily Mail is partly that they outright lie at times (Hillsborough, Orgreave etc) but also that they endlessly present opinion as fact.

A simple example is the Corbyn terrorism thing. You can reasonably argue that he was misguidedly soft on the IRA in the '80s or that he went after peace through open talks while Thatcher's government preferred secret talks. Both those arguments have plenty of supporting evidence and whether you believe either of them ultimately comes down to opinion and probably which way you were already leaning politically. Neither involves deliberately misleading anybody.

The Sun and The Daily Mail both deliberately chose to misrepresent anything they could dig up such as photos or out of context phrases from speeches to promote the idea that Corbyn was/is a friend of terrorists. They've toned it down since the election because the increased Labour vote and polling information on Corbyn show that most people realised that it was blatant propaganda.

I'm delighted most people don't believe everything they read in the papers. I think it is strange that somebody would be so determined to believe an obvious lie told by two of the worst of the papers when they've pretty much given up on telling it themselves.

I wish you well.
I'm intrigued by your comment about Catalonia though and must confess to have little knowledge of that subject.
What is the difference between Catalonia's desire to "break away" and that of the UK voting to do the same?

The worst thing is that they'll probably come to a shoddy compromise on residency that involves mountains of paperwork and partial rights to things. In France that will mean deliberately obstructive bureaucrats, endless complications and delays, and ultimately paying a lawyer to get whatever health care and pension they decide you're allowed. All while paying high taxes and social charges so the functionaires can retire early.

Is Spain similar? I've got mate in Madrid who reckons it is simpler but he's a teacher so most administrative stuff is done for him.

We, as a nation, voted for Brexit.
What if our negotiators suddenly told us that the other 27 countries, having studied the situation closely, had arrived at the conclusion that our exit was simply not on and offered a situation where they spelt out, in detail, where an alternative solution of "change from within" was feasible but only if we agreed to have another vote. Would we then agree to another vote and also would we agree to accept the result and get on with it.
In my opinion, Europe don't want us to leave and will do everything in their power to stop us leaving. There is probably a long list of reasons for their stance and I think that high on that list is the fact that they are frightened that, should our exit be successful and generally in our favour, the floodgates might open as other countries may want to follow suit.
I see another referendum as inevitable as people are fed up with all the bickering taking place. Not to mention the divisions and ensuing vitriol, even amongst families and friends, that is taking place.
I see it as a Referendum to heal a Referendum/
I am against Referendi but would agree to this new one in an honest attempt to heal the widening rifts.

Think you're right about the EU's stance on Brexit Mr Derwent - they've made it pretty clear that if the UK leaves it has to be worse off than if it stayed. The main motivation for the whole thing was always building a big European economic block with internal free trade and external clout because of its size. If it turned out that the UK economy did well out of it who'd be next up to damage the block?

Can't see why a referendum based on a detailed understanding of the likely consequences of leaving couldn't happen. Be doubly true if there had been a change of government by then - why would they feel obliged to push on with an economically harmful and increasingly unpopular policy that they inherited?

Another thing is that the current Government is quietly getting on with their agenda whilst encouraging total focus on brexit.
When they have shaped the country as they want it, they will then say that all this brexit malarkey is damaging and dividing the country and start to organise it's abandonment, probably by promising another referendum. That way they have a good chance of engineering a further five years of government with a more than healthy chance of a healthy majority.
Crafty bastards these politicians......although we all know that don't we ???
Problem is we still fall for it !!!!!!

Agree with that Derwent.

So why not accept we are leaving and let sort out today's problems now , is housing crisis , food banks , zero hours to name but a few , instead of arguing about something that won't be changed

Just like that?

You think these things can be just sorted out?

More chance of them being sorted out if those politicians who are devoting all thier time opposing brexit spent that time opposing Tory policies designed to keep the working class in poverty

Except if you happen to believe (and the evidence is pointing that way) the country will be significantly worse off after Brexit and therefore has less ability to just sort some of these issues out

Nobody actually knows how we will fare after brexit.

The point is though, this whole farce has put the UK in a very dangerous position, and there was absolutely no need to do so.

Nobody voted leave to enhance our economy. They are lying if they said they did.

They all wanted our country back and to control our borders. It was all about that and sovereignty.......whatever the fuck that is.

When in reality, an awful lot of closet racists, joined the openly racist, to rid us of that awful scourge, the foreigner. And that blot on our wonderful landscape, the black man.

Their motto should have just been "send the buggers back"

There is a very good chance that they wont get what they wanted, but will end up living like a lot of them....in ghettos.

Still. As long as we have our country back.

The elderly and the fat bald headed racists will be chuffed to bits.

This will be brilliant and no doubt very very funny.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2017/08/2 ... ed-brexit/

But nowhere near as funny as the comments section below the article.

There are some seriously fucked up humourless people about.

Maybe there is none. Is Scottish independence the same as Brexit?
I know why the Catalans want to break. They are fed up of a central government that overrules everything their devoluted government implements.
Ban bullfighting? Illegal. Make banks release housing they are deliberately keeping unoccupied? Illegal. Give women more than just token equal rights? Illegal. Ask the population if they're OK with all that? Illegal.
I think Brussels is a bit less reactionary than Madrid.

There are well over 600 MPs. I don't think it's manpower that's stopping them sorting things out.

Interesting.

This thread started with discussion on interest rates, but has been taken over by Brexit arguments. Is the EU still a viable proposition?

It's questionable whether some countries met the financial criteria to join the EU, but the rules were apparently bent to allow them in, & in the case of Greece the figures were fudged by Goldman Sachs to get them in. There doesn't appear to have been much "union" as far as Greece, Portugal, Spain & Ireland were concerned, all of whom had to be bailed out whilst Germany reaped the financial benefits of their membership. The Greece repeated bail-outs have been a complete fiasco, for which the ECB & IMF should carry the can.

The Cypriot, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek & Italian banks have all needed bail-outs, & a couple of the big German banks haven't looked too healthy. Fiscal & budget rules are over-looked when it suits the EU, which has had no credible response to the asylum seekers crisis.

Then there are the un-elected bureaucrats in Brussels on their gravy train. They are sitting on hundreds of billions of Euros which have been contributed by EU members for projects, & despite the EU's own auditor urging them in 2015 to get on with the projects & spend the cash, the surplus cash has since actually increased.

It's understandable why some people would want Brexit, if Britain couldn't have collaborated to fix all these by remaining in the EU.

Couple of points. The bailing out thing concerns the UK a lot less because pound. Having said that, if Brexit is Brexit then union is union. We don't talk about bailing out Scotland (hypothetically speaking) because we did sort of innovate the idea of unions being, by definition, unions.
Second point, or rather question, are unelected Eurocrats any better or any worse than their unelected UK equivalents?

I was talking to my granddaughter's significant other when they were here 3 weeks ago. He said he had a decent job as a plumber. I hazarded a guess that he was working away.
Yep, he was.
I'm not sure I know anybody fron Hartlepool who actually works there. I think I might try getting into the bike trade. Or I might even open the Norman Tebbet bike museum.

Chip I think you may have contradicted yourself a bit there. As you say, the low interest rates have been a global issue for 10 years to try to combat so-called deflation, & that all occurred long before the Brexit-generated fall in sterling.

My point about the bail-outs is that it's questionable whether those countries should have been allowed to join the EU, or once in, that their budgets were not policed by the EU as they ought to have been. It's easy to conclude that Germany wanted the others in so that they could benefit from free trade with them, & there seems to have been no EU control over Germany's escalating trade surpluses. Bending of the rules all round

As for getting on one's bike, the logical answer is to relocate jobs to parts of the country where the cost of housing is lower & transport can be made more efficient. The South East economy is unsustainable, & unless there is a dramatic re-think on housing & transport, its grind to a halt can only accelerate (is that a mixed metaphor?)

Actually Monty, the bike is not only the future, it's already here & some areas are embracing it

EU budget rules were ignored by absolutely everyone before the crash. There were hardly any countries in compliance which makes you wonder what the point of them was. They clearly don't correlate with ability to withstand shocks or places like France and Italy would be wastelands by now. As far as I can tell all they do is give other EU countries an excuse to put the boot in instead of helping when someone comes a cropper.

They're just playing catch up. I honestly can't remember the last time I used anything but a bike for a trip of less than ten miles. Right here it's a cycle path paradise. Mind, it does help that my bike kicks serious arse.

P.S. no it's not electrically assisted.

This cheap labour you talk of has driven down the wages of the majority of the so called ' blue collar ' jobs , how that is a ' good thing ' I'd be interested to know

Low interest rates have been a global issue to combat so-called deflation. The US Federal Reserve has already increased rates & is trying to talk up further rises. Negative rates have been in place in parts of Europe, & Draghi wants to "normalise" them & cut back on the ECB buying up bonds. Low interest rates happened before long before Brexit, which itself has no bearing on what the Fed & ECB now want to do.

Governments want inflation as it devalues the cost of financing their debts, but they don't want it to be so high that their electorates kick off - which is what will happen in the UK when mortgage rates start to rise. The fact that we have had around 10 years of unprecedented low mortgage rates will be lost on the complainers, but those low rates have screwed up the housing market for first time buyers by pushing up house prices

I think it's fair to say the Tories aren't any better at spunking cash then any other political party, they have, after all, nearly doubled the debt and are also giving cash to a thinly disguised bunch of terrorists

Concur, they’re all shite. Cranks to the left of me, buffoons to the right ...!