Happy to have it challenged, and perhaps I misinterpreted your meaning so hang fire with your apology.

It's a very difficult topic to discuss without inflaming extreme emotions. The result of the referendum HAS to some extent given a green light to the fukwits with an increase in reported racist incidents. That's fucking horrible and needs stamping out, as it always has done. Sadly it's always been there, and the fact that we're going to be leaving the EU has somehow sparked a synapse in some swamp like brains. However, the point I made in an earlier post is that there's also been a huge awakening amongst the liberal left (not the greatest or most accurate label but bear with me), with swathes of the population torn between wringing their hands down to the bone, taking to the streets with protest signs written with calligraphy pens and hunting down the knuckle-dragging white supremacist Neanderthals who had the temerity to vote against their wishes. If you don't believe that, have a quick look at some of the Facebook groups like 'Britain against Britain First', which I foolishly joined as I believed the title, or 'A Very Brexit Problem'. There's some fucking horrible stuff on there, aimed at anyone with a remotely different world view. Threats, sneering abuse the lot. And mostly from people who would argue that they alone preach the politics of tolerance. OF COURSE, that's not even in the same ballpark or even universe as attacks based on colour or first language, but it's there and it's on it's way to dividing the country.

Brexit is happening so we all need to deal with it. And I still suspect we will all be dealt a fucking awful hand.....but time will tell.

What I cant stand though is this:

One of the reasons I voted remain, was to try and get rid of odious human beings like Farage, who is just scum. Farage got what he wanted, yet his one trick party are still around.

Farage has absolutely no mandate, hasnt been voted into power by any constituency, yet is always on the tv being interviewed, and giving his fuck awful opinions on everything. And almost demanding to be included in any decision making process.

And whilst at the same time, being interviewed from the EU headquarters, where he is still stealing a wage. e hates Eurpoe,and the EU, got his wish, but isnt big enough,and honest enough to give uphis role at the EU, and hand his wages back.

Just a hypocritical racist bastard.

Getting back to the topic of Scotland and a new referendum, the more I think about Sturgeon's timing the dafter it looks. If they have a referendum in Spring 2019 the whole UK will be about to leave the EU having negotiated a deal with the EU27. So the UK will leave on that basis or on the expiry of the 2 year negotiating period under Article 50. Now should the Scots vote to leave the UK then it will take a period of time, say another 2 years, to negotiate that deal. They will have to sort out details like currency, central bank, borders, trade tariffs with the rest of the UK etc. So Scotland will be out of the EU and out of the UK in say 2021.

I don't know how much trade Scotland has with the rest of the UK but it must be many times greater than with the rest of the EU. So how can the loss of access to the single EU market be sufficiently catastrophic to trigger a new referendum that would lead to separation from a much bigger market? As I said before, it's purely political opportunism based on the SNP's single issue agenda of separation from Westminster.

Devil's work it may be, but it gives a snapshot of some of the bilge that people spout, and more importantly believe and can't be completely ignored.

But Sturgeon doesn't care about any of the important details, she just wants to be the one who gives the English toffs a bloody nose. The SNP are about as capable of running a country as that other bunch of one-trick pony racists UKIP.

Interesting article by Monbiot.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-cut-rope

I'd be astonished if the cool dude said anything else. It's what he does.

Georgia porgie, pudding and pie,
Looked in the mirror and caught his own eye.

Oh come on, Snowy. if you don't agree with what he says, it's open for discussion, but going for the man/woman and not the ball is just what results in so much political argy-bargy..

Another example of this would be aido's "she just wants to be the one who gives the English toffs a bloody nose...."
It's what passes for political debate in this country, much of the time.

To be honest the Scottish voter is largely responsible for this whole shit-fest. Having rejected independence in 2014 they then voted for a party who existed solely to deliver what they rejected. By abandoning Labour they delivered to Cameron a Parliamentary majority he never thought he'd have, meaning he needed to honour a manifesto promise he never thought he would need to fulfil.
We are leaving the EU. A clear majority voted for that. A clear but, electorally, tiny majority. Now we have May, seemingly confusing herself with Churchill in 1940, intent on taking us out of the EU at any cost - merely to satisfy the harrumphing extreme of her party and the headline writers of the Daily Mail/Express (and if you want examples of vile abuse, they've been printing it for years).
We may, ultimately, be better off outside the EU, although how you define "better off" is down to personal opinion - it's not always about money. Personally, I think it will take a long time and, at 62 and a half, I may not be around to see it. The current period of "austerity" caused by the recklessness of a few bankers, is turning out to be longer than the period of austerity caused by the recklessness of Adolf Hitler. So batten down the hatches. There, I've mentioned Hitler - I concede the argument!

There may be some short term gains via brexit.

But what should worry everyone is the long term pain that could well follow afterwards. Mainly to be felt ny the next generation that bizarrely voted in the main to remain.

Just for once they may be justified in blaming their parents.

I wonder how many that voted exit did so with their children and grandchildren in mind.

But I moan too much as we all know it was all about sovereignty. As that's all the working classes ever talk about.

I think the next generation have a lot more to blame this generation for than Brexit - student loans, zero hours contracts, erosion of workplace pensions, housing etc etc

Apparently Scotland would have to apply under Article 49 to join the EU, which of course they can't do until they have left the EU and have the power to do so.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 27201.html

Admit it, you fancy him.

No I don't. He's too thin. Also, if I fancied him I wouldn't be listening to his politics.

Meanwhile Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy sent ex-Catalonia president Artur Mas to court for having held a unilateral consultative referendum (i.e. opinion poll) on Catalan independence in 2014, and they have just found him GUILTY. And banned him from office for two years.
I can quite imagine Mother Teresa taking inspiration from that.

She's probably less of an idiot than Cameron (personal career wise), but she is of course still an odious politician.
And when it comes to a Scottish referendum, there's nothing in it at all for her.

I'm just curious to what the English people think. It'd be nice to hold an opinion poll on whether the English want independence from Scotland.

It seems the SNP have the sole right on whether we remain a union or not. Why can't we have a say too?

I'd mention her other manifesto points but unfortunately the SNP don't appear to have anything else, judging by the state of their economy, schools, health service, transport infrastructure etc etc etc.

But at least they might get one over on Westminster eh ?

Tory party fined £70,000 for breaking the law during election, surprise, surprise. It helped them get what they wanted. Slap on the wrist. Sorry guv we won't do it again eh! eh!

A re-run of the Thanet by-election would be nice,and so would be the sight of Farage's best buddy arriving on Air Force One for the campaign trail.

Yeah, well, good luck with that. Your facts will suffer the fate of all facts that are presented to people for whom evidence is an alien concept.

A particularly ham-fisted way of handling dissent. If there's any sensible reason why the Spanish don't want Catalan independence, or the English Scottish independence, I can't see it. Seems to be little more, when it comes down to it, than an obsession with controlling other people

Well they would be facts if it wasn't for the fact that the SNP have had to cede the point that under their 'care' the Scottish education system's ratings have fallen dramatically in the three key areas of reading, maths and science to their lowest ever level (see the most recent PISA survey). Sturgeon asked to be judged on education.......
As for the comment on May's unelected status, maybe you should Google electoral procedure.

its quite funny, but we havent left the EU yet, and we certainly arent close to a deal to give anyone any comfort either.

And we all know the decision making process will go something like this:

1. What suits the Tory party.
2. What suits tory MP's
3. What suits the city
4. What suits the banks.
5. What suits London generally.
6. What suits the South East.
7. The rest can go to fuck

FTFY

same with a lot of topics nowadays warwick. you loose a vote and won,t let people get on with it. same with the pro europeans and democrats in the u.s.a. you,ve lost so just get on with life.

That's what I always say. You've lost, so let a corrupt, half-witted, morally-bereft, mendacious racist make America great again. What could possibly go wrong? It's only a football match after all.

I thought the Scots voted for the UK to remain in Europe. They did not vote to leave the UK.

Even though people don't like this inconvenient fact the vast majority of the electorate did not vote Leave in the referendum either. This gets conveniently ignored in rhetoric of a clear mandate for leaving the EU

To be fair to her she doing what she said in manifesto which she has a mandate to do based on her voters that got her in by a record margin and them who voted to stay in EU. I don't agree with it but let's talk sense she going with the will of her country.

Not quite, she is going with the will of the SNP voters, which is about 35% of the country.

You don't get it, do you ? When only a fairly small percentage of people (but a majority of those who take time to vote) chose to leave the EU it's an outrage of monumental proportions, but when the SNP try to invoke the will if the people on a 35% mandate to rerun a referendum they were defeated in only two years ago, it's a triumph of the democratic process. Chip's board, Chip's rules.

So a referendum is a general election now is it.
Chip's argument is perfectly consistent.
Nicola Sturgeon uses her mandate to invoke an exit referendum because her party favours an exit.
Theresa May doesn't use her mandate to overturn an exit referendum despite most of her party favouring a remain.

Also, I don't know why this has become 'chip's argument', when so many of us are saying the same thing. Maybe chip has a special place in aido's heart.

As has been said over and over again, the first Scottish referendum took place when we were all members of the EU, and when there was no indication that we'd be leaving. The second referendum is....how can I put this so that aido will understand.....different entirely, because now are all being led into 'hard Brexit'.

It is like first being asked if one would like chocolate and replying : oh all right then, only to be then informed that the chocolate contains a toxic substance but that one is committed to accepting because of one's first reply. Or, can anyone think of a plainer analogy, purely for aido's benefit?

Forget the analogies. An imperfect analogy is like a screwdriver with a leak.

Yes, bugger analogies. A more immediate problem is that now I am thinking obsessively of chocolate.

The simple view of Sturgeon is she was willing to leave Europe to gain independence and now she wants independence to get back into Europe. It would be funny if she won the independence vote and there was a u turn on brexit. The surprising thing is no one has mentioned Bannockburn yet. Where's Braveheart when you need him.
Anyway it is all a load of hot air.
What would people think if there was a u turn on brexit but re entry was conditional on us joining the single currency???