Seen a few articles today suggesting we are going to end up with the same deal as Norway.

So that's yet another leave lie. Gove promised us we would end up like Albania.

I WANT ALBANIA.

Sweet home Alabania...

Proves how stupid this full fucking charade is end up paying all the money having all the immigration and not be able to influence the policies. . Well done Lads you played a fucking stormer..

No, shame on you. First things first, I know why you voted as you did; you hope that this will lead to some sort of socialist utopia (and I've explained elsewhere why I think you're wrong). We can disagree on this, but lightly as our aims are the same. Also, I hope you did not take my post as suggesting that you agree with these 'nut jobs'; to be clear, I am not suggesting that. And I am more than happy to apologise for the insinuation that you do.

BUT, to describe the violence as a 'few score nut jobs' is to miss the larger picture, and you are minimising what's going on here. The far right are quick to claim that Islamic violence results from a warped culture, yet the violence of the right is down to mental illness and a few nut jobs? Really? One party in this debate has blamed all of the ills of society on the EU and immigration (Farage consistently claims that everything would be ok if we left) and the same party has even borrowed from Nazi iconography. Are you seriously telling me that this 'Othering' of a host of peoples has nothing to do with the violence they are now subjected to?

WTF? I'll get on to this in a moment.

If you're going to tell me I'm talking utter tripe, too right I'm not going to respond well, particularly if the person saying it is a classic pub bore; all hot air with no clue.

You do realise the effect of introducing tariffs to trade on a country that has a balance of payments deficit? Let me "figure out" the rest for you. Imports become more expense as a result of the tariff. In short, consumer goods cost more than they did before, meaning we have less spending power as consumers. The same applies to industrial raw materials. This all leads to a reduction in GDP, an associated rise in unemployment and an increase in inflation. Not many policies lead to increases in unemployment and inflation.

But it gets worse; tariffs on exports lead to a reduction in demand overseas as the prices of our exports increase. This reduces GDP further and puts our very sparse manufacturing base at risk.

But it's even worse; a balance of payments deficit is never a good idea, as it means that more cash leaves the country than enters; in the UK, we've been shielded from the worst excesses of this due to the strength of financial services, a sector heavily reliant on the free market in services. Oh, dear, a market we are about to leave.

This, in short, is why Osbourne threatened an emergency budget; we'll have less tax revenue and larger welfare obligations. We'll see this in the autumn statement.

And before you respond that we can export and import with the rest of the world to make up the difference, we need to consider an important point. All our trade deals with the rest of the world (which largely reduce or abolish tariffs) are made with the EU, not us. When we leave, we leave these agreements. So, everything we import or export is subject to these tariffs, until we negotiate unilateral trade deals, which takes years.

But you obviously knew all this, but you're hopeful that if we 'pull together' we can manage it. We can't, unless we manage a Norway option and remain in the EEA.

Anyway, the question on this thread has been about plans for exit. To just see the dearth of ideas on this, it's worth reading this article in the LRB:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n12/james-meek ... a-weetabix

In short, it asks what we would do about farm subsidies in the event of Brexit. The leave campaign promised how all this money we send to the EU would be spend on the NHS. It forgot to mention how we got loads of this back on different things. The article focuses on the Common Agricultural Policy and payments to farmers. If we fully withdraw, what is to happen? Will the government continue to give the same subsidies to farmers, or will the money be spend on the NHS (or, as is more likely, tax cuts)? Currently, food imports are subject to tariffs, thereby supporting EU farmers; will we abolish these tariffs, thereby leading to lower prices, but meaning that UK farmers cannot compete, so that farms will no longer be economical viable? Or will we increase tariffs, meaning that farmers will no longer need subsidies, but our food will cost a lot more?

This is what is meant by plans; concrete decisions need to be made that affect us all, whether through prices, or how the countryside is managed. For all of you who enjoy visiting the Lake District, this whole region is massively dependent on EU funding. What will happen when that goes?

The same could be said about whole areas of state spending. Regional Policy is a prime example; how many EU funded signs do you see on infrastructure projects in the North East? Will a Brexit government spend the money we send to the EU in the same way, or will they go for tax cuts. They've said nothing on this, other than a vague comment on spending this on the NHS, which they've since admitted was a load of BS.

WE NEED ANSWERS!

Why are we worried about an exit strategy when smart arses like you are so clever and informed. Or are you just bullshitting and intent on scoring points. You do, I assume know where Whitehall is.

And there we have it; the anti-intellectualism at the heart of this whole debate. Experts are 'smart arses', who claim to be 'clear and informed' but are really 'bullshitting', so we can ignore them. I don't need to know where Whitehall is; they know all this already; it's basic economics that I would expect an A-Level student to know.

We need to worry about the exit strategy because it's going to be a right royal mess, and no amount of 'pulling together' will sort that. Unless we go for the Norway option, but you thought that was 'tripe' as well.

The country is in serious danger of being seriously fucked and still I wait for any response to any of mt questions as to wht the voted or what they thought was going to happen.

I reckon most of you are now ashamed of said vote and are keeping quiet as you have no idea why or how.

Fucking hell you aing even going to keep the nig nogs out.

Oh behave yourself.

Labour will elect a new leader and remain as pointless as they are at the moment given that Benn doesn't seem to be standing.
Boris will become Tory leader and become PM until the next election.
The UK will continue to trade with the rest of the world.

Colonel and Chip will end up in Peterlee town centre with placards exclaiming 'The End is Nigh'

Nah, Chip is going to emigrate to Spain and I'm going to help organise his leaving do, in the interests of seeing he gets a good send off. I wonder if he'll let the Spaniards know he played footy at a decent level.

Not sure if anyone else spotted this. This should have been released and made public before the referendom.

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/.../watch- ... t-analys...

There is an old saying about economic experts, it goes " If you collect one hundred economists together in one room, you would struggle to get two of them to agree"
I have had a message from a very good friend of mine in which he suggests that you are trying to goad me into saying something which will allow you to ban me. I believe the message has substance. Therefore all discussions with you on any subject will cease forthwith.
i'll end by saying you are a very nice man and I love you dearly.

I don't consider it a bit of fun. Not that I'm against fun.
I'm retired and I do give a toss.
I have never voted Tory in my life.
I also think it was stupid to hold a referendum. They are divisive. As has been proved on here and elsewhere.
You can only ask people to disclose how they voted. If leave people don't want to discuss it, then so be it. You could however write to the leader of the House and try and get him to explain it or answer your questions.
I also think the discussion is pointless but I did try to tell you that. You chose to ignore me which is your right so I set about getting you to aqree it was pointless, which you eventually have.
My leading position on this referendum is that, at the moment, we're out and my opinion is, the best way forward is for everyone to work to make the best of it.
However I'm not fully convinced that Article 50 will be triggered. Cameron said it would but then resigned. So the new man will have to trigger it. I think it depends who that new man is. If it's Boris, people will automatically think that he will trigger it but what If he has a Damascus moment. Boris thought that Remain would win, most people did and he could be shitting bricks at the thought of the decision. I think Cameron and his pals have a surprise or two for Boris, so he may not get the job. The alternative leader, whoever he or she is, may go to the country to ask for a mandate to trigger it etc etc etc.
I think there are more twists and turns to this. I accept that this conspiracy theory is pure speculation and could be way off beam but......................

Well said Mr Fat. No answers are offered to questions about what to do next, and those who try and point out the, horrendous, possabilities that will occur in the very near future are derided as either "experts" or whingers about not winning a referendum.

Mr I, I dont know you but you come across as a reasonable bolke. How the fuck can you honestly sit there and think the moras of shit we are in is best suited to the likes of cockwomble Johnson to steer us through? He's a journo and ex-mayor with the diplomacy skills of a six year old. Hes built a career on slagging off europe and now he will probably be heading the team to negotiate Brexit.

You dont find that in the least worrying? Appreciate as a Tory you'll be happy with seeing them in power and Labour just, well, fucked. But the next few years will be at least difficult and at best fucking awful.

Will Vodafone go where it`s call centres are or is India too far away from Europe?

I have to be honest that a deal identical to Norway’s, which if I understand rightly permits just as much free movement as remaining, would suit my personal needs. I bought into the European idea and have been practising it since 1984. If the rug gets pulled from under my feet, I have to ask what other nationality I can replace British with. Yes, it's either stop being British or stop being a European citizen. At least I could retain the illusion of remaining one if we do a Norway.

That doesn't however stop me thinking that leaving the EU on the strength of a 2% swing-of-the-day is totally reckless and the biggest shooting-oneself-in-the-foot exercise since the Tea Act or the Corn Laws. Stark raving bonkers.

Surely if you despair at the fall of the ftse, You should be happy at it's recovery.
This imbalance is probably what stops the leavers joining in. They know that whatever they say they are going to be ridiculed.
This is usually the point that is made to me when I ask former posters why they don't post anymore and it is usually the same people who dominate proceedings and ridicule anybody and everybody who doesn't agree with them.
However, c'est la vie.
I wonder what's for tea.

I`m having Salmon

Sounds fishy that does.

Quality post on biasedbbc.org:

The Young are up in arms, disenfranchised (couldn’t be arsed to get out of bed), marginalised, ignored, demeaned and …and…ooohh…it’s soooooo unfair!!!!

Rather than take to the streets with a Koran in one hand and an AK in the other they’ve taken en masse to modern liberal guerrilla fighter’s weapons of choice, Twitter, Facebook and the dread power of the online petition….but what might be familiar to any Jihadi is the BBC’s support and understanding for their grievances and its determination to press their case for them without much in the way of critical thought or analysis. The Young, we are told, don’t like Brexit and that’s good enough for the BBC…the case rests.

Good job Twitter, Facebook and Change.org weren’t around in 1975 or else all those youngsters who were denied the vote then would have been savaging the Oldies as now…. but now the old dogs have had their day. And what about all those bastards who joined the army to fight the Nazis in WWII? What a load of selfish f*****s eh? The underage who couldn’t join up might have wanted to surrender if only they’d been given the chance. We could have had a beautiful EU long ago of it hadn’t been for the British Armys’ killers and murderers who destroyed the dream…..yeah Hitler may have killed 6 million Jews but the motorways, the socialism, the pride and unity across Europe, the smart uniforms, just think…and anyway Hitler only killed the Jews coz of what the Israelis were doing in Gaza…so you know…like…they deserved it…only saying what I heard on the BBC.

Brendan O’Neil talks about the massive drive to overturn the democratic vote (the most democratic vote…far more than any general election), part of which is the loud campiagn by the ‘yoof’ to try and claim they were somehow robbed of their future and therefore, in some shape or form, the vote should be run again…only with the young getting two votes each presumably.

The BBC has been very supportive and has been running through all the possible permutations and excuses for a rerun….if only Angie had got out of bed, if only George had not been out of his skull at Glastonbury, if only Alfie’s mum had let him out to play….the vote could have been so different.

This is all part of the BBC’s own campaign to delegitimise the vote. The BBC has many angles of attack not least of which of course is the usual omission or downplaying of inconvenient and awkward facts, such as the Obama backtracking on the perils of Brexit and his new found criticism and scepticism about the EU project, as well as a remarkable reluctance to ask questions about the Remain campaign’s astoundingly dishonest and alarmist claims and threats whilst forensically and relentlessly attacking Leave’s claims. The BBC, along with others, want to make out that the stupid voters were fooled by ‘lies’ and so the vote can be annulled.


Alastair Campbell tweeted: ‘EU law allows customers to withdraw from contract if contract based on lies. LEAVE agenda riddled with them. Lawyers on the case.’

The BBC disgracefully, but as per normal for them, portrays the voters as thick, ignorant and uneducated and not a little bigoted.

The BBC dresses up its own bigotry as ‘research’ which tells us that Leave voters are all a bit thick and uneducated…


Was there a Brexit graduate gap?

Voters without degrees were more likely to back leaving the European Union, figures suggest.

Along with age, class and the part of the UK you live in, graduate status was one of the key factors that influenced whether or not you supported EU membership, election analysts believe.

Andrej handed out leaflets for the Remain campaign. At first, every British-born voter he spoke to told him they were voting Remain. But then all of a sudden, “on Facebook they were saying ‘We’re using pens to vote‘”.

It’s not malice that drives suspicion of foreigners and conspiracy theories, he believes. “Some of the people here are not educated good. They don’t have access to the information in full.”

The BBC may slip in the odd qualifier that things are ‘complicated’ but the message is plain….the less educated you are the more you are likely to vote Leave..and the more likely you are to be fooled by the propaganda…..as the Guardian insists…


A week before the referendum, pollsters working for Britain Stronger in Europe admitted that they were getting extremely worried about Vote Leave’s suggestion that £350m sent to the EU could be diverted to British priorities such as the NHS. Guardian focus groups in Brighton and Knowsley suggested many voters saw the message and believed it.

One woman in Merseyside told the group: “Just think, we could get £20bn back a year and make the country great again.”

The BBC has been making strenuous efforts to attack the £350 million pound claim by Leave and suggest that, as the Guardian does, this led to voters being misled and as they have based their vote upon it…let’s all vote again. As said though…no such analysis and conclusions about the Remain campaign’s claims.

I noted that Nick Robinson and Sarah Montague both (an editorial decision? Must be) used the same way of talking about the £350m in interviews on Saturday with Leave representatives along the lines that ‘If you can’t get all that £350m back…’. It’s a bear trap for Leave that the BBC deliberately set…..because if they say ‘But we won’t get £350m back…’ the BBC leaps in and says ah but your whole campaign was based upon that (when the BBC isn’t alternately, when it suits, claiming the campaign was based on immigration) and you now admit it was a lie. It has been the BBC that has been claiming Leave said we would get the whole £350m back…..Leave have always qualified their statement by admitting that we get a rebate and that the EU spends some of that money on UK projects…Leave’s point, missed again and again by Humphrys and Co, was that it is the UK government that should choose how to spend that money not an unelected EU bureaucrat.

The BBC has been trying very, very hard to find evidence to ‘prove’ Remain’s biblical claims of doom and disaster are coming true……and yet it is a mere 5 days since the vote and things are bound to be jittery….the more reasoned predictions always said short term the economy would take a moderate tumble but would bounce back possibly stronger. The BBC opts to report the market and sterling falls as signs of Osborne’s impending doom and ignores that long term things will improve.

One other tactic in the campaign to delegitimise the vote is to claim it has led to attacks on foreigners in the UK…


‘Go back home’ – Bitter backlash post EU referendum

No proof of course that is true but now every racist attack will be so labelled….and yet as we know all too well the BBC relentlessly reported such attacks before the vote. Many such reports may well be false…the arson at a Halal butchers seems somewhat dubious…not the first time such fires have been set for insurance or to blame ‘racists’ …remember the Darul Uloom school ‘arson’? Four boys arrested…no names and no convictions? Why not? Was the fire set by boys from the school themselves in order to blame the EDL in the wake of the killing of Lee Rigby and to make out that Muslims are the real victims of such murders?

In 2014 Poles were being attacked…in ‘Remain’ country too…


Seven attacks in 10 days as racist gang targets Polish community in east Belfast

The BBC themselves reported that Polish immigrants were the attackers in some hate crimes….


Poles held over Sweden asylum centre attack plot

Cameron of course has joined the bandwagon and made his opportunist speech about ‘hate crimes’ linking the latest attacks to Brexit and yet nowhere do we hear him express any concern for the Leave voters attacked and abused in what are equally ‘hate crimes’. Why are the police not investigating the ‘Liberal’ terror squads on Twitter and in the streets who vilify Leave voters?

The BBC has done a story on this and yet it’s of lower profile than its mainstream stories about immigrants being attacked and somehow it’s just not really a hate crime.

Jane Kelly in Conservative Woman relates a few more tales…


By 4.40 am on Friday 24th, it was clear that the mass of people in the UK had voted to quit the EU, doing so in a bigger number than have ever voted on any issue in any British ballot before. Surprised and amazed I went for a morning walk with a friend visiting from London. He was wearing a red ‘Leave’ T-shirt, not to be provocative but it was the only thing he’d brought with him to wear. I hadn’t noticed it at all, so I was surprised when a fat youth, wearing an earring and tight shorts shouted at us: ‘You should be ashamed! Ashamed! You have ruined the lives of a whole generation!’

And this…


On BBC-2’s Newsnight that night we were treated to a small forum in which someone with the unlikely name, ‘Paris Lees’ a ‘transgender rights activist,’ who writes on Twitter that ‘it’s time for a revolution of love,’ declared that the Leave campaign had been a load of deliberate lies. She/he railed about old people ruining the future for her generation. Dr David Starkey asked her/him quite logically if she/he would like a cut off point for voting, people over 65 perhaps not being allowed to vote at all, or younger people having two votes?

She/he then turned her/his loving gaze onto Dr David Starkey, discounting his opinion because, she said, he was a ‘privileged, white male.’

Perhaps we should have a cut off point for the terminally stupid and idiotic…perhaps Newsnight should as well…why waste our time with ‘interesting’ morons? Then again….Paul Mason.

The BBC has a strange logic…it gathers in every single tale of racist attack, pronounces them as the fallout from the Brexit vote and implies that Brexit is therefore a bad thing.

Compare how it reports on crimes by immigrants. There are thousands of crimes committed by immigrants in the UK ranging from murder and rape to shoplifting and fraud…and yet the BBC does not make any link to ‘immigration’ and certainly does not draw the conclusion that perhaps immigration has some drawbacks and maybe it should be controlled.

Perhaps Mark Easton or Evan Davis would like to explain how open borders was good for the family of Alice Gross…tied up, raped, abused and killed?


Foreigners entering Britain ‘were not routinely checked for convictions at the time Alice Gross’ Latvian killer came to UK’

Alice Gross would almost certainly be alive today if it hadn’t been for the EU’s freedom of movement rule as he wouldn’t have tried to come here.

Mark Easton, who sits on the BBC sofa blithely telling us how immigration is good for us and that it is unstoppable so we’d better get used to it, should be ashamed of himself.

Yelling abuse at a Muslim in a headscarf or raping and murdering a 14 year old girl. Which is worse? Depends who does the crime says the BBC.

There are no words ...

No words to counter the argument

Well said Sir! (stand by for the leftie luvvies backlash)

Aye, youre right. No words can possibly counter that.

Well go on then, please offer your intellectual responses to each point.

Just in case you didn't know, the editor of that blog is David Vance, an extreme Ulster Unionist who had a previous blog shut down for hate speech. His insane claim that the BBC ever said that Hitler only killed the Jew's because of what the Israelis are doing in Gaza tells you all you need to know about that website. The author of that article, Alan, writes in the same frothing style as Vance.

Funny that you missed off the racially loaded headline Pooliepaul.

I think you only need to get to the third paragraph (which is where I stopped) to realise what sort of bigot is writing the article.

It is mental, like something the Russian sports minister would come out with after doped up hooligan athletes having been causing chew at a football match and banned from the Olympics.

Still waiting for the reasoned intellectual counter arguments.

Seriously you are reading that and thinking 'yes he has a point'

Fuck me it's scary.

Still waiting

I never read it as I can't be bothered to waste 5 minutes of my life reading racist shit

Note to prospective politicians, make it consise and to the point .. Oh and of course if you talk shit expect to get banged.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

For what, it is bigoted conspiracist (hey note the last five letters of that word) nonsense that the youth of today are being brainwashed by the BBC. It is mental are seriously waiting for someone to analyse it and pull it to pieces? Seriously? As I said, scary.

The good old racist slur. Is that it? Is that the sum of the argument? Yeah, heaven forbid our Celtic, Roman, Saxon, Viking, Norman blood gets diluted eh? This is about democracy not race.

What has the awful and brutal murder of young girl got to do with us leaving the EU? Yes the killer was Latvian but does these people genuinely believe Brexit means that we will no longer have any foreigners here!?

The most common theory is that Jack the Ripper was a Polish man called Kosminski, Victorian London should have had greater control over its borders.

It would be funny if it wasn't so awful, seriously have we allowed people like this to shape our and our children's futures?

Sorry Paul, wont be biting. Kinda make it a rule not to debate with, you know, trolls. Posting shite articles like that here - the are no words.

Do you genuinely think that anyone would genuinely think we will no longer have foreigners here? Now that's scary.
I, along with the vast majority of leave voters are not racist in the slightest. We are all equal, regardless of colour of skin, or eye colour for that matter. But it appears that it is the remain voters that are of the opinion that we are all equal but some are more equal than others.

I was referring directly the absurd article you posted, did you even read it? He goes on about the murder of Alice Gross.

Thanks for that Mr. FM. I feel I owe you a response, but after that I am done with all these post-Brexit threads.

I called the Far Right graffiti artists and screamers of abuse at women 'nut jobs' to express my contempt for them - maybe a poor choice of words in the context of earlier exchanges about the extremist who murdered Jo Cox.

I stand by my wider point. It's not clear how many racist incidents there have been since the Referendum, but in the really febrile atmosphere of the past few days there are potential dangers in exaggerating their prevalence as well as in minimising them.

For me, British society feels more divided right now than it has been at any time since the Miners' Strike. Sure, you can point the finger at Farage - nobody is buying his professed support for migration from 'the Commonwealth' - but the furious reaction of the Remain camp to the Referendum result is also ratcheting up an atmosphere of mutual hostility.

Time to take a few deep breaths? Whatever gets said on here, the roof isn't falling in just yet. For all the sound and fury, the Tories still hold political power in this country. They'll get around to choosing a new leader, who won't be a Remainer, because the final choice is down to the Tory rank and file. Then I guess we do get Article 50, whatever odds the bookies are giving.

Chances are there'll be a general election in the autumn - till then I'm sticking to the sports related threads on here.

I don't actually. But even if I were to, would that actually make me racist? That's good logic you've got going on there.

Absolutely shitloads of evidence of hate crimes based on the referendum result, so minimising them doesn't impress me.

Anyone of sound mind would find hate/race crime simply repugnant. I think we can agree on that. Shitloads of evidence based on the referendum result? Where's the evidence for that? I'm sure that yes, as a result of the referendum there will have been an increase in the number due to the small mindedness of a section of society. But sensationalism which is what we are being fed will only make the situation worse. So sensationalism doesn't impress me.

These hate attacks have to be stamped on and stamped on hard. No place for them.

Are you saying it hasn't been happening then? Or that 'sensationalism' is to blame rather than racists/fascists for perpetrating it?

Blame Cameron, he only did it as a vote winner when the polls were predicting a 60:40 victory in favour of remain. He cocked up big time.

That's a proper dignified response that I should learn from. Cheers.

Just tried to read that long copy and paste.

I gave up. Blood was coming out of my nose and ears.

Who on earth could read that and want to spread it.

Even the bible makes more sense

According to government statistics in 2014/2015 (12 month period) in England and Wales there were (despicably, I might add) 54,000 recorded racist crime incidents. Doesn't take a maths genius to work out that's an average of over 1,000 incidents per week which were nothing to do with the referendum. I have no idea whether this (already horrendous) figure has increased following the referendum, I'm guessing it has, but undoubtedly the disgraceful problem was already there. Do you not wonder why the media choose to bring it to the fore now when it happens on a daily basis year in, year out? Call me cynical but contributing towards the discrediting of a democratic vote that the media did not want is my guess. Of course the ignorant small minded perpetrators are to blame but sensationalism such as we have been subjected to simply fuels the fire and does nothing to solve the problem.

Fuck me, since when have the above papers been 'looney left'? Fuck me again, the Mail couldn't be more anti-immigration if it fucking well tried

And don't forget, Nigel fibbed his little bum bum off, can't stop immigration he says, can't give you any of the 350 million and for a man who positively hates the EU, he like his trips to Brussels

Valiant's obvious sarcasm to subtle for you? I think you'll find he totally agrees with your sentiments. Good God even the sainted Mrs T was more left wing than the editors of the above "newspapers".

I know that now....... I'll get me coat!