I know we already knew that.

But surely today is the final straw?

Claiming leaving the EU will mean we will end up going to war.

Ah well. Lets stay then.

I mean its not like we have gone and had Wars anyway is it?

As we sent soldiers to death in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, and god knows here else, I am sure we were in the EU then, and I am sure Germany sent no soldeirs to these places to help out.

I want to stay in the EU but stupid c unts like Cameron make it hard to vote for it.

Didn't the EU actually incite the war in the Ukraine with its foreign policy? I also seem to recall the EU doing sweet FA to stop the genocide in the former Yugoslavia. OK Germany hasn't invaded France for a while but I think that might be down to factors other than the EU!

Desperate words from a Desperate man

The way i View the EU is Simple

You take a Lodger into your home
The Lodger tells you what you can or can not do in your own home
The Lodger tells you, you carnt stop people using your home no matter how many wants to Enter your Home.
The Lodger tells you whilst i am in your home you will Pay Me
The Lodger tells you whilst im in your Home you carnt get rid so you just have to Put up and shut Up that is your Choice its only taken 41 years for you to have a say and we are suppose to be a Democracy with Freedom of Self Determination i think Not

There must be loads of positive stuff that the EU brings. So Camreon just keeps up with negative lies, stupidly making it easier for people to say out.

He speaks very highly of you.

The way the stay in argument is being put makes me want to leave, the use of the word could apertaining to some disaster or other instead of will tells me the stay in argument is not strong enough and is based on fear and bullying.

The thing that puts everything into focus is hearing people like Gove say we must come out of the EU because the EU stops people like him making the laws they want to. I rest my case.

I would still rather have people making laws i or we can get rid of every 5 years if we so wish, rather than some one making Laws who you carnt get rid of should you not Agree with what they are passing onto You and Me

Well just using the words Gove and out, makes me want to stay in.

But then, I wouldbe making Cameron happy.

Oh dear, its a lose lose.

The main thing that worries me about the leave campaign is the people who are fronting it ie Gove, Johnson, Farrage and then at the weekend Trump came out in support of Brexit

Given the alleged enormity and risk of us leaving the EU, for both UK and EU, Cameron certainly failed to achieve anything material in his renegotiation. Is it that he is simply shite at negotiating (as are many on the in campaign who argue that negotiation of a trade/security deal is impossible - hardly the best way to approach a negotiation) or is that the rest of the EU are not prepared to change their direction of travel ie the Euro, freedom of movement and a federal state of Europe. Given that the in campaigners don't agree with either of the three priorities, membership of the EU is akin to joining an expensive health club but not using the gym, the pool or the spa. Why would you want to be a member?

So the choice is

In - have a free trade area but concede sovereignty, jurisdiction, border controls and democracy
Brexit - risk some economic downturn and trust that whoever we elect in UK can sort out some deals and not erode any protections currently provided by EU law

Slod thats a very balanced view.

Trade and Jobs will probably worry alot of people how ever if Cameron was not a Dictator he would tell you the Following.

We have a Trade Deficit with Europe if it was the be all and end all why are we happy with a Deficit thats means we are creating more jobs else where than we are in our own Country.
Official Government Figures tell you with Germany alone we have a Deficit of 42 Billion $ how many jobs in Germany rely on that Trade no wonder they dont want us to leave because if we do they know full well they rely more on us than we do on them.

Remember a Budget Deficit means you are spending more than you are Earning = Austerity
A Trade Deficit tells you like any Business Man say why on Earth would you Trade at a Loss..........

Leaving won't happen overnight. Those trying to scare people into voting to remain in seem to hint things will happen immediately.

Trade deals will be renegotiated as will defence/intelligence if it's in the county's best interests. The UK will be able to decide it's own immigration policy and laws, which can only be a good thing for any country never mind one with such a generous benefits system. All of this will take years.

That said when has agreeing with Farrage and Trump been a good idea?! Trump want's to "make 'merica great", making other countries shit can only help his cause. Farrage just says what the average idiot with a vote wants to hear, thankfully not enough of them are bright enough to mark a cross in the right box.

Well, you're luckier than I am if you get rid of the people you don't like every five years!
What I need is someone to curb their excesses. Can't think of a new law that's been passed here for some time that I've agreed with.

Not that I'm all in favour of the EU either........

Grabec Ask yourself this Question.

Have we had a Labour Government for 41 Years Consecutive Years
Have we had a Tory Government for 41 years Consecutive Years

So its not that im Lucky, Governments change its called Democracy

An excellent post, Splod. I don't pretend to be up to weighing the pros and cons. Partly my ignorance and partly because there are just too many unknowns.

What I don't agree with is that, by staying in, we'll concede democracy and that this will be detrimental. Democracy is worth very little when it comes down to it. Many Exiters seem to think it's something to be retained at all costs, but that's because many of them assume that voting in an election means they have a hand in making laws for this country, or that most of the 'native' laws work to the benefit of most English people, which are both clearly myths. Exactly why Gove wants to be out.

Apart from that I don't feel English, I feel European. This is partly because there are no Little Englanders in mainland Europe. Little Englanders hate immigrants and I hate Little Englanders.

Yes, we have......but what has voting for either of them actually achieved for thee and me? That's what I'm getting at. It's not a system worth keeping...that's why so many have stopped voting in this country.

It is naive in the extreme to believe that changing governemnts actually changes anything.

Whether parties are on the left or right, once they get into power they look after whoever will keep them in power.

And thats usually the money men.

t is naive in the extreme to believe that changing governemnts actually changes anything.

Whether parties are on the left or right, once they get into power they look after whoever will keep them in power.

And thats usually the money men.

Thats probably True in Politics how ever you can only but Try if every one just give up where would we be
Maybe its Naive to think if Pools change their Players we would get Relegated.

" Democracy is worth very little when it comes down to it. Many Exiters seem to think it's something to be retained at all costs, but that's because many of them assume that voting in an election means they have a hand in making laws for this country, or that most of the 'native' laws work to the benefit of most English people, which are both clearly myths."

Grabec, part of the reason so many people think 'democracy' is broken is the existence of a very expensive European parliament with very few legislative powers, which hardly anybody can be bothered to vote for. All the big decisions are taken - in secret - by the unelected European Commission.

Would that matter of the decisions they took were good ones? Not being a fan of the "Mussolini made the trains run on time" school of thought I'd say yes, it matters a lot, but in any case so many of their decisions are absolute shite. The unworkable Euro is still in crisis and the poor bloody Greeks are due for another round of torture this week. Schengen is falling to pieces because of the migration crisis, and the best the Commission can come up is to spend billions bribing the Turkish government to stop the flow of migrants (which will just be re-channeled some place else).

Cameron talks as if the 'safe' option is staying in the EU, as if it wasn't teetering on the brink of another financial crisis and in uproar with the rise of fascist parties. But if good old GB stays in, all will be well!

Cameron/Gove are two sides of the same coin of course - each will do anything to win this vote because that's what the Tories are all about. But this issue is bigger than all of them.

Well, I do think democracy is simply a chimera, Malcolm. I've never understood why dictators go to all the trouble they do to establish police-state machinery when all they need is to establish a couple of tabloid newspapers to harness public opinion..... and subsequently be able to do exactly as they want. That's what 'democracy' is in this country.

That doesn't mean I support EU as it's currently organised..or that the EU always makes the best decisions, but I would say (to disagree with you) that it would make every difference if the European Commission were making 'good' decisions.

I think it would be easier to achieve an improvement in that decision-making process than it would be to cut through the entrenched politics of our dear little nation state.

This is a pointless vote for me. Neoliberalism's the problem. Both the main UK parties are 'largely' neoliberal in outlook, and the EU is framed in neoliberal terms. Indeed, the whole debate seems unable to break out of this neoliberal cast. It's all a bit of a hobson's choice, really.

So, you think living in a democracy is no different to living under a dictatorship anyway and believe that we don't have any press freedom at all because some of it is pro-Tory?

Question was for Grabec but will do as well for Mr Fat Man.

Do they hold referendums in dictatorships? Hitler and Stalin used to, and the vote was always 99.9% in their favour.

The EU has three Presidents (European Parliament, Council and Commission) and no citizen gets a single vote. Its hardly a democracy. At least we'll get to vote on who the next King is - won't we?

Pandora's box at least 5 pages

FYI I am voting to leave

You need to clarify the question; is this a normative question about the differences between democracy and autocracy, or an empirical one, comparing our democracy to an autocracy?

If it's normative, then of course there is a difference, but that does not mean that material and empirical realities reduce that difference. From the time of New Labour, and the neoliberal consensus, voting in the UK (and other democracies) offers some alternatives on some important political and social issues. But on the big questions, any differences are merely cosmetic. While changes in governments are due to popular elections, rather than popular revolutions, the effect is not particularly significant. Let's take a number of important examples; marketisation in the NHS, the creation of academy and free schools, law and order, and the regulation of financial markets. You could take any policy pronouncement in these areas, remove the author, and I bet you would struggle to guess the party of the person making the announcement. Yes, in opposition, parties oppose. But this is without conviction, because each party largely continues on the same road as the other lot. Take schools and academy status; Labour currently oppose this, but the whole programme (based on the promotion of 'choice' and market principles in education) was a labour invention.

Malcolm does like to muddy the waters a bit!

We were talking about whether being able to vote or not should be one of the deciding factors in staying with or leaving the EU, and whether being able to vote actually gave the voter any significant say in the running of states.

My point about dictatorships is that it hardly matters whether there's freedom of the press or not if the bulk of the electorate are gulled by the media into supporting the status quo.

I'm beginning to think (not for the first time) I should go off and be a hermit somewhere.

My thoughts exactly. EXACTLY.

Can I just say, as someone who lives in a foreign EU country, that if you vote to leave I'm going to come round and knack yous all.

You haven't got the hang of this campaigning thing, have you? There have to be inducements. We're open to bribery and corruption, but we take a dim view of threats.

I think of the EU as the Eurovision Song Contests' political wing.
Every country gets a vote, they gather in their respective groupings and mediocrity triumphs.

Until this morning I thought that Cameron, whilst a toff, was OK. Now?

Before today my only agreement with Brexit was Turkey - I simply do not want to be blackmailed by these thugs under the guise of us all being chums.

Remember the devolution vote? Before, I liked the Scots; now, eff off with that Ginge Bitch.

So how will our garlic/ sprout/ Heineken/ etc. munching chums react to us? We vote 'sod off' and then say 'let's negotiate'?

To be honest I have no idea how to vote - and I own a business employing 97 folk, worked as a chartered accountant in practice for 25 years (including 5 abroad), and am fighting off every old age ailment - so what chance have we of a fair, considered vote when arseholes tell us that we're going to war?

Where's Pirlo when you need a considered, youthful view

Did we not have human rights before the EU?

We did, and the ECHR is a separate body to the EU, although the EU is increasingly incorporating ECHR norms into its decision making.

I tend to agree with Bentham on the notion of human rights.

Leave

I'm voting "leave" because of all the nonsense from Cameron, but also because of the EU Fish Labelling Regulations, one of which says the label must state "CONTAINS FISH":

http://ec.europa.eu/fisheries/documentation/publications/eu-new-fish-and-aquaculture-consumer-labels-pocket-guide_en.pdf

It's fish! For fucks sake!

And my point was that your point wasn't very bright.

Of course freedom of the press matters - it's the reason politicians on the fiddle in this country get exposed, ridiculed, sometimes even locked up. That tends not to happen in dictatorships.

As for being gulled by the media into supporting the status quo - the status quo is staying in the EU. Hadn't you noticed?

I would have thought, Cameron apart, that sensible folk, not the status quo, want to stay in.

Whereas most of the out crowd, are absolutely fucking awful people, for example Gove and Mr UKIP.

Surely you meant to say that"material and empirical realities" DO reduce the supposed difference between democracy and autocracy? I don't disagree that there's little practical difference on most issues between what New Labour stood for in government and what the Tories are about now. Then again, you could trace the terribly pale pink complexion of New Labour's politics right back to the Nineteenth Century, when social democratic parties like the German SPD forgot that winning a majority in parliament was meant to be a step on the road to the dictatorship of the proletariat, not an end in itself.

Personally I don't have exaggerated expectations of statism or political parties, and that could be a majority view, judging by how many people think our professional politicians are "all the same." Then again, I do believe that living in a democracy is the least worst option, as anyone who has ever worked or even just traveled in a dictatorship (autocracy, if you will) must have noticed.

I don't believe ceding powers to the EU has strengthened our democracy one iota. On the contrary, the European Commission is a profoundly undemocratic institution. In 2011, it and the IMF effectively suspended Italian and Greek democracy, imposing an unelected technocrat as the Prime Minister of each of those countries. Their task was to throw hundreds of thousands of people out of work and rob millions of others of benefits and pension rights to mitigate a debt crisis that the bankers and technocrats had caused in the first place. The idea that being in the EU somehow 'protects' British workers is laughable.

Osborne wants to stay in. Jeremy Hunt wants to stay in. Theresa May wants to stay in - you get the idea?

Or are they the sensible folk?

Gove is a cock as is Farage.As for Boris.. .Lose what little protection you have as worker and gallop headlong back in time to the Victorians. Make sure you have your flat cap and muffler handy..

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Ah - I get it. So Cameron, Hunt and Osborne want to stay in the EU to protect the rights of British workers? Brilliant.

Ok mr father I concede there are more horrible people want to stay in than I listed.

But dont the ultra left wing labour party also want to stay in?

But you must concede mr father that no one compares to gove.

Mmm.

If they were in series 2 of Blackadder it would go like this:

Blackadder - Osborne

Lord Percy - Cameron

Baldrick - Corbyn

Queen Elizabeth - Farage

Lord Melchett - Gove

Prince Ludwig - Hunt

Lady Whiteadder - Teresa May

Flashheart - Boris

I'm getting bored with this now. My point was simply that being able to vote for a party, as in a democracy, doesn't mean that the vast majority of people achieve policies that are in their best interests.

This does not commit me to believing that, as you put it "living in a democracy is no different to living under a dictatorship anyway and believe that we don't have any press freedom at all because some of it is pro-Tory?"

My point was that the Tory press control the majority of the country's political beliefs. The press could be made to control the majority of any country's political beliefs. Therefore, I asked, why is a police state necessary at all, anywhere?

The end.

As a fellow EU country dweller I'm backing Monty as far as knacking all leave voters goes. I won't knack anybody myself because of my bad knee but I'll hold his coat and snigger while he does the dirty work. This is a French fighting technique that I have acquired.