Has anyone anywhere met someone who agrees with what Jeremy (C)Hunt is trying to impose?

What the fuck will life be like for normal people in this country in ten years?

Horrible (C )nuts.. is it jo surprise that the Chancellor's Brother has been struck off rhe BMA list..

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Well said. This lot are a vile bunch. How this country do not take to the streets is beyond me.

Double post !

One of the sticking points I believe is he wants the doctors to work for single time on a Saturday. Next thing we will all be expected to work for single time on a Saturday.
When I was a lad working on the sites Saturday was time and a half a.m. Double time p.m. I think that has all changed to time plus forty per cent all day. Sunday was always double time but that's been reduced to time plus eighty per cent.
We are going backwards in this country !

This is just the thin end of the wedge from this government. Next it will be consultants then nurses which will suit their ideals. Many will leave which will leave the gate open for bringing in more private companies supplying staff then total privatisation of the NHS. The government will then start on another public services, demoralise, weaken their union then privatise

Hang on, how few people get time n half? Completely unreasonable these days, most companies only pay time and a half once you've worked a full week of full working hours and then into overtime. Also its a service, key is in the title. It's meant to be there for people who work and pay taxes and the service needs to fit around them e.g. not the usual 9-5 when people are in work. People who work in the NHS should remember they are there to serve people, not line their own pockets with massive pensions and go on strike if they don't get what they want. They had plenty of time to negotiate the contract but instead they didn't budge thinking they could hold the government to ransom. Good on Jeremy Hunt for taking none of that crap and saying this is it, be reasonable or get out, there's a bigger cause at stake here. They had their chance to negotiate and blew it, now they must deal with it and stop complaining and get on with the job they chose. If they don't like it then get out in the real world and get a job with a crap pension etc like the rest of us

This government, since they came in has F...cked the NHS. When was the last time you tried to get treatment at a hospital over the weekend??

Unless youn work in NHS you havent got a clue. These people are put in a position of saving peoples lives.
European Working Directive doesnt count, you cant be in the process of saving a life and say " well its 5.00" thats me for the day". Working long days and then about 8 hours turnaround before next shift. And on top of that the threat of being sued for not making the right decision because theyre were knackered through lack of sleep...........

Yes let's see who can win the race to the bottom and get the worst hours, crappest pension, they only studied for a minimum 7 years fuck em.

Tell us a) when they had the "time to negotiate a contract but instead didn't budge their thinking"
or b) "when they had their chance to negotiate but blew it".

Don't you just mean : they had their chance to bow down to Hunt but refused to?

The main issue isn't pay, the main issue is that doctors will be expected to work such long hours that they will jeopardise patient care, their own health and will have no time for reasonable sleep periods or ordinary family life.

To bring it home, would you want to be operated on by someone who hadn't had proper time for a kip or a bite to eat in the previous 24 hours? Because that's what's happening now, and it will get worse if Hunt gets his way.

But he won't get his way because he's blatantly wrong in this. Even a majority of the twenty top NHS managers, that he pretended had signed a letter of support, have since said he forged their signatures.

If it can be proved that he has forged signatures he should be arrested, tried and jailed for a long stretch. Mr jhumps also should be incarcerated with him for impersonating an idiot........................unless.......

It probably can't be proved, derwent. Hunt will just say that the names were added to the letter 'in error', by a junior secretary somewhere.

But doesn't it just show how irredeemably thick he is that he couldn't foresee that the 'signatories' would notice what he'd done, and publish a denial.

Most jobs in service industries like bus driving pay a single rate for Monday or Sunday the only extra is bank holidays when you accrue a lieu day if you work or on a rest day, if you aren't required you simply get a day off with pay


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Granted yes it is a race to the bottom, but that's the way the rest of the world works unfortunately, actually because the NHS has no competition it's a bit powerless to give people and alternative like in a private market. But still, we can't live in la la land and expect everything to be paid for by the taxpayer and people who work hard, life is hard and things have to be earned. The NHS as great as it is, has to fit with the modern world too.

I do get the point about tired doctors, but that is an internal NHS issue that as you point out is already happening, i'm not sure of the solution to that one other than hiring more staff. That contract doesn't help do anything for that either way.

The BMA have been negotiating this contract for months, that's ample time to negotiate and meet in the middle. The fact Hunt's chief negotiator said they weren't going to budge so that in effected ended the negotiation, that's where they blew it. Called the governments bluff and lost out, the BMA has always been far too aggressive and now it's become notorious for being difficult for the sake of it,

Derwent, there's no need to get personal by also calling me an idiot because i have a different opinion to you, doesn't make me an idiot. And north Shields, yes i do work in healthcare, so i am familiar with the policy structure within the NHS and the government. Hunt has no doubt handled it badly. However, the NHS does need to save money, and guess who drew up the 5 year forward view which details the extent of the savings that need to be made, none other than the CEO of NHS England Simon Stevens...he's got nothing to do with the government.

Absolutely amazed that there are still people in this country who are swallowing the bullshit touted by the Tories over gold plated pensions and doctors holding the country to ransom.

I'd rather pay a doctor a decent wage, rather than watch the corruption that is currently taking place in Westminster. If you weren't aware - the last release of expenses showed that including salary - the average take home pay per MP is almost £250,000 a year. Let that sink in for a moment.

They get £40,000 pay off if they lose their seat in an election - awarded themselves an 11% payrise when most public sector workers had their pay frozen. They can buy a second home, put a tenant in at taxpayers expenses, claim the rent earned - then sell the property in the future and claim all the profits tax free.

Corruption and greed right at the top - but yes, lets blame the doctors.

I work in a service industry, no time and a half or double time for me, sundays and bank holidays all come the same, mind I do get seven weeks holiday and we've just got an 8% pay rise.

The bank I worked for went from double time pay and a full day off for Saturday which was ten till three. To 9-5 hours Saturdays with a day off. Just muttering about the good old days and when action was proposed just gave up this valuable extra.

Can't believe how many people have swallowed the tory guff. . Let's all get paid fuck all just so a few corrupt wealthy bastards can get richer. . Whatever happened to solidarity?

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But you were the one who started with the insults. Your opinion, as you put it, is an insult to me, junior doctors and anyone who, when Hunt et al are finished, needs a doctor. My opinion is that your opinion is idiotic, making you an idiot. Just my opinion like.
As a matter of interest what is your role in healthcare????

"The BMA have been negotiating this contract for months, that's ample time to negotiate and meet in the middle. The fact Hunt's chief negotiator said they weren't going to budge so that in effected ended the negotiation, that's where they blew it. Called the governments bluff and lost out, the BMA has always been far too aggressive and now it's become notorious for being difficult for the sake of it,"

Again I ask you at which point the doctors could have negotiated a settlement with regards to the problems being debated? The key problems being debated concerned patient safety and doctors' welfare. In the course of the discussions, when did the government ever offer a solution to either of these things, which the doctors turned down?

And, the doctors haven't 'lost out' by any means. They have growing support, from all parties and sections of the public. That is why Hunt has had to invent signatories for the letter I mentioned.

Reading an article, once he imposes the contract on the Doctors it could 'drive down' all the Terms and Conditions of the other NHS employees, he should start by cutting the salaries of the Executives some on £250000 a year, strange years ago these posts never existed years ago.

Jhumps actually makes some very good points

I just find it all extremely depressing.

My missus works for the NHS. She works permanent nights (bank staff - you can no longer get permanent jobs doing permanent nights on the NHS as far as know, certainly not in my missus' line of work) for no other reason than it fits in with the kids. I work days, she works nights. We do this because we chose to have kids and our attitude is that we should be there for them, for their benefit and ours (we didn't want our kids being brought up by other people and we actually had kids because we want to spend time with them). For the record, I don't judge people who have a different view to this. Your choice and children don't come with a manual so it's all guess work.

Bank staff has its benefits (she chooses when she wants to work) and draw backs (no sick pay, no paid holiday).

When these changes filter down, which they will, it will mean she loses £500 gross per month.

This will shaft us royally.

My missus works with people with learning disabilities, personality disorders, bipolar, scizophrenia (spelling??), psychosis, severe depression, self harmers etc etc etc and obviously runs the risk of being chinned by very sick people nearly every time she goes to work.

Yes, she chose this line of work and the associated risks but without the extras for working nights (she is still underpaid in my opinion even with the extra) there is absolutely no way we could survive as we are - and just so you know, we can't afford foreign holidays, decent cars (mine is 16 years old, the wife's is 11 years old) and the house needs updating so by a lot of people's standards we struggle now.

Personally, I hate that she works nights. There is evidence to show that working permanent nights in the long term shortens your life, more so for women. Our plan is that when the kids get to the point they can look after themselves she stops the nights.

Anyway, I've gone off on a bit of tangent / rant but given the subject it's hard not to..

The point I want to make is, I have never sponged off anyone and never will but it doesn't seem to matter how much we do, it's never enough for long. The goal posts are continually moving and it's always against us. Always. It has never been in our favour.

Do more for the same wage. Oh yes and whilst you carry on working with no wage rises year on year, the cost of living continues to go up / the real value of your income is eroded by inflation. Terms of employment get worse every time there are changes. The decision makers might as well just skip a few years and bring back slave labour now.

The people who make decisions for the masses could not give a fucking monkeys about any of them/us. But what can we do? Fuck all. 'Safe behind their walls of silence' to quote a line from a Subhumans tune.

Capitalism only works for those that are good at it. If not, tough shit. Fair society that isn't it? Everyone starts with an equal chance? Of couse they do.

At least my wife is qualified to look after me when I lose my fucking mind.

Why do people whose politics lean to the right always seem to assume that nobody works hard but them. All these CEO's and "Captains of Industry" spout the line "I've worked damned hard for my 2 million a year and share options, blah, blah, blah". By implication they are saying that those in low paid jobs (Bin Men, Postmen, Care Workers etc.) just haven't worked hard enough. And it is a race to the bottom as others have said, the classic tactic is to get workers to blame each other, or other vulnerable people (immigrants, asylum seekers and others). Just read the average Daily Mail/Express headline for evidence - but for your sanity don't stray beyond that. The NHS is on it's knees thanks to political interference from both major parties, anyone with any recent experience of that outpost of third world health provision, that is North Tees Hospital, will be aware of that, but it's an ideal and a service worth fighting for - and we will have to fight.

Last two posts are excellent. I cannot agree enough.

Why don't you get a decent job then with a decent pension? Don't sink to the bottom!

Come on Bresslaw man, I know you are better than this.

He makes no good points whatsoever. He is a cretin, if he believes Junior Doctors dont deserve 100% public support.

Infact I will say to the face of anyone that believes Jeremy Hunt,has anything good to say, that they are cretins and should be sectioned. Not that I would want to socialise with anyone that believes the destruction of the NHS, for Budget purposes is a good idea.

The NHS is fucked.

Not because of Doctors, or Nurses, or over spending.

Its entirely down to governments not properly funding it,and making our Health their no. 1 Priority.

Yes they overspend, but only because they get less and less funding each year, and have to do more with less. They are not a fucking business, they are the Health service.

Putting the NHS on budgets is fucking criminal, and those responsible should be shot.

If any of you cant see then you are most definitely retarded.

whilst on about the NHS.

If you have a child and live in Billingham, Stockton, Middlesbrough, Redcar, Brotton, Guisborugh, Nunthorpe or areas surrounding these places,then you should be very very concerned.

All children are currently undergoing a period of Immunisations.

The Health trust doing these, won the contract at an agreed fee per Jab, to be completed in a certain time.

I will repeat the above........................They won a contract at an agreed fee.

Yes the our Health is being tendered to the cheapest bidders.

To make sure they are achieivng the targets issued and to maximise the fee received, the jabs are being given to kids, with incomplete parent approval forms, forms with missing data, and unsigned forms. They are actually getting the kids to sign them themselves. I know this is fact.

They are rushing them so much, that in some cases, the kids are being sent back to classes, when the law says thet are meant to be cared for for 15 minutes after recieving jab.

One case recently was at a schoolin Durham, that is on both sides of a busy road. One child was sent out staright after her jab, crossed the road, and spewed up whilst crossing.

All in the name of progress, targets,and budgets.

iTS FUCKING CRIMINAL.

As a teacher, I can confirm this is not the case in our school or local area. I'm living in the midlands and if the form is unsigned, no vaccination. Even a phone call home is insufficient - they need a signature from a parent / guardian. I've witnessed dozens of kids being sent back to class without be immunised for failing to have the correct forms.

Can't argue with what you claim in the North East but can state for a fact it isn't happening in the Midlands.

Good to hear it Mr Toe.

My wife is part of this team of ten. She is the only one that refuses to jab without a fully compliant Consent form.

She is also the only one seconded to do this, as she is a school nurse rather than Immunisationonly nurse.

She has had argument after argument with the others in her "team".

I kid you not either, they treat it as a triumph if they do more jabs in a day than another team. Patient care? Doesnt come into it one bit.

The trust involved are about to go under special measures as they are losing Multi millions.

They are doing this practice to try and get some income fast.

Its appalling.

Then she's failing by not reporting them. That's not an insult. It's something she must do.

Sounds horrific - people celebrating such targets shouldn't be in that role.

Our school nurse is ace - I think she's the driving force behind stopping the jabs too. She checks all the kids herself and rejects those who haven't got a form.

If only it were that simple.

Its a weird world we live in, when you more or less accuse her of failing, because others are failing.

She has to work with these people whether she likes t or not, for 6 more weeks. Six weeks only. then she returns to her day job, for a different trust.

Is it really worth the risk for her?

She covers her arse at every turn. She isnt accountable for what the others do.

Like I said, whistleblowing isnt as simple as some try to make out.

Whistleblowers generally end up losing more than the rest.

They are usually forced out of their job, they are then viewed with suspicion when they work anywhere else.

Principles are one thing, being able to feed and cloth yourself is something else.

I get the the impression the most NHS managers would be impressed by a presentation like this:

https://youtu.be/1WGrmTJnfIg (sorry I can't do the embeddy thingy)

As long as it was presented by Interstellar-Globular-Outsourcing-Solutions(Houston) Inc.

If I was in a team of 10 and my 9 colleagues were all guilty of illegal practices I personally couldn't do a full day never mind 6 weeks

Bresslaw didn't you work in prisons? You must have seen all sorts of shite.

Not sure what you are suggesting

Me dad worked at Durham prison and one in Northants. He told me loads of hair-curling stories about what some of the staff got.up to in both places. I'd hazard a guess that similar things occur in all nicks in this country, and it would be impossible for any member of staff to not know about them.

Perhaps it was for effect

Aye, whatever.

Prison officers do. I've heard it. I mayeven have done it

I was always intrigued as to how drugs got.into prisons.

There are many ways. Very many. Even prison officers have brought them in occasionally

If you are inferring that other officers turned a blind eye to this you couldn't be more wrong

Aye like masons don't turn a blind eye

I'd suggest everybody has turned a blind eye to something at work.

I made the mistake in my youth of reporting two staff members for being smacked off their tits in the workplace - it was affecting business - customer complaints the lot - the manager sided with the 2 staff, I ended up leaving as I was shunned by the rest of the workforce. A few months later there was an external audit from the company bosses, the managers were sacked on the spot - several staff members were turfed out - it turns out word was fed back to head office over the initial incident, so justice was finally served - the downside was I too lost my job too.

Makes you think twice about making a stand in future.