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 Post subject: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:13 am 
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Some people have us dead and buried for next season before a ball has been kicked, some people had us dead and buried at the start of the season and are not too impressed we stayed up, plenty on here are not going to attend the Vic next season.
Your choice
But while you are all pointing the finger of blame, think about this
When we got beat off Kettering, in the cup, there game plan was and I quote from memory "to keep it tight for 15-20 minutes and let the home fans do the rest, and to be fair it worked a treat" That chesnut was delivered by their player manager over a beer in the lounge after the game. He got the info from having us watched twice and by speaking to Danny Wilson.
From headlines reading 'Fortress Vic' with comments on how intimidating it was for teams to come here because of the noise of the support, to that.

Before you start with the if there was something to shout about we would, its CTs/players/RG/IOR/pukka pies fault, What about the comment to Roy O Donovan when we were 3-1 up? just before the Turner out banner? and in case we are a community full of Arsene Wengers I will remind you "welcome to the board back to Sunderland you Mackem Tw@t"
Nice
People had us dead and buried at the start of last season and in life you tend to get exactly what you focus on and some were hell bent on achieving that.

This is not a CT Love in, this is pointing out facts that as supporters we must share some of the responsibility for creating an atmosphere of doom and gloom when,most crucially, the team club needed us most.
Portsmouth got it from their fans and almost beyond belief are in the FA cup final, partly because the fans rallied around them. Any interview with any player tells you how important that is.

Continue on slagging off the players, the management, the backroom staff, the pies, the ticket office, the administration as much as you like. Brag how you are never going to go to the Vic again whilst whoever is in charge, laugh with your mates how you are going to spend your saturday afternoons but make careful notes, because without support we could lose more than points and you might need to refer to them as to how to spend your saturdays.

I know I have touched the forbidden fruit by daring to suggest we have any responsibility. I know how passionate some people are and don't need reminding of how may games you attend because for some on here I stand in awe at the lengths you will go to support your club, our club.
CT is passionate about the club and for anyone to deny that is just plain daft, he must also shoulder responsibility as must others.

This is not about him

I have seen first hand the difference the crowd make to the dressing room before the game, I have seen the players coming in buzzing about the crowd noise and how revved up they are. I have also seen the flip side to that, from just about the start of the season.

Managers motivate players, its their job; but the crowd? now that is motivation! I have stood out there when the crowd have been in top form and you can see in the players faces what it means.
It is unbelieveably electrifying.
There is nothing like it.

I have also heard players getting slagged off at the warm up. I have seen their faces, theres nothing like it

Keep your yawns, and cuddly emoticons, keep your answers and retorts blaming anyone and everyone Ive heard them too many times this season and last.

This is not about who is to blame, I don't deal with blame its about playing our part in keeping the faith, the 'Never Say Die' attitude that the club even put on the shirts so that the players believed it. For many of us that attitude is still there, for some, well they never had it, but believe me when I say as supporters we can make all the difference.
Dead and buried for next season? nah not in my locker that one!
rolf

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:21 am 
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clappp top post mate!

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:24 am 
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That post is awesome.
I make little speeches to myself from time to time, reminding myself of some of the points you have made and also reminding myself of the tiny small part that I play as a supporter.
All the small parts which we collectively play.........added together they play a much bigger part and have a much bigger effect............for better or worse.
Thanks for reminding me that first and foremost the football club plays a massive part in my life.

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:40 am 
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Great post there mate. Hope there are a few more like you on this board as i have just decided to start to make a post or two on here after jacking in the other board as ther was too much anti Pools stuff going on. Mind you i see a few familiar names on here like. Anyway back to the point-Great post.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:55 am 
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This a shared responsibility, the other side of the coin is, a) the club must motivate the fans to attend the games and when they do attend b) the players must excite the fans by obvious commitment and endeavour to command vocal support.

It is obvious that a) has been largely lacking for three seasons or so and b) has only been apparent in sporadic instances.

Fix them and you will get what we all want.

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:04 am 
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Hard to argue with a much of that Paddy but there is one other aspect. The days that most people would say were the most enjoyable were those under Cooper. I'm not harping on about bringing him back but that passion that he had was infectious and transmitted to the fans.

These days there is a distance between the club and supporters and this is I believe 100% down to the KGB levels of insulararity shown by the powers that be. This attitude of KH's that no info should be released seems odd for a football club. Perfectly reasonable for a commercial business but he does not seem to accept that there is a difference between running an oil company and a football club.

Successful clubs are those where the club and fans are as one and yes, the fans need to put some effort in but so do the club.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:15 am 
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I went looking for a video to highlight the enthusiasm shown by Neale Cooper, and came up with this one, which also shows in the first minute how Chris Turner was also capable of showing his enjoyment and passion for Pools in his first spell.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:16 am 
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Managers motivate players, its their job; but the crowd? now that is motivation! I have stood out there when the crowd have been in top form and you can see in the players faces what it means.
It is unbelieveably electrifying.
There is nothing like it.


The crowd at Brentford were magnificent


The players?

Well they huffed and they puffed but couldn't blow the house down

Just like the previous two seasons on the road


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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:21 am 
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Yes some excellent points there, thanks. It is undoubtedly a shared responsibility and one which does need some polish, the cooper years were unbelieveable, we had never met a character like him and he undoubtedly connected with the supporters and that showed. The whole town fell in love with his personality and that reflected in the atmosphere.

My point is exactly the same as Aptids, it is a shared responsibility and is also a chicken and egg scenario to some extent, a conundrum, but we had similar when CT first came, so the passion is out there somewhere and a closer relationship or connection maybe what is needed and that will be achieved by reasoned thought and discussion not by blaming players, club or fans.
We can achieve those electrifying moments again, we can produce the kind of atmosphere needed to fill the unforgiving minute but it takes balls. Balls to keep singing even when we are behind and not playing well, THAT is when it is needed, that is when we need to let people know we are there and to lift the team and by some peoples accounts we will be needed very early on :laugh:
I think I might give relate a ring :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:39 am 
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Realistic?
reality is that we have remained in this division for four consecutive seasons, reality is that Darlo are playing Gateshead while we will be playing Southampton. Reality is that we will be starting next season in League 1 division 2, at least let the season start before you give it the last rites.
Reality is we are Hartlepool United, we are a damn sight better than we where 10 yrs ago and for the previous 30 yrs before that. Wether you think he is up for the job or not is subjective, really. He is there and probably will be for the future season.

Your commitment to travel and go the extra mile is not in question.

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:45 am 
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Dugoutpaddy wrote:
Realistic?
reality is that we have remained in this division for four consecutive seasons, reality is that Darlo are playing Gateshead while we will be playing Southampton. Reality is that we will be starting next season in League 1 division 2, at least let the season start before you give it the last rites.
Reality is we are Hartlepool United, we are a damn sight better than we where 10 yrs ago and for the previous 30 yrs before that. Wether you think he is up for the job or not is subjective, really. He is there and probably will be for the future season.

Your commitment to travel and go the extra mile is not in question.


clappp

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:12 am 
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chip fireball wrote:
i remember coming back from millwall last season. me, dunny, mad john, pde147, and seggers.

you couldnt ask to travel with a more positive and for want of a better phrase " rose-tinted " outfit.

and none of us really wanted to talk about the game. it was just .... poor. 2 poor sides on a poor pitch. a game millwall won because they wanted it more. a game where 2 were hauled off at half time for lack of effort and in all honest he could have taken half the team off. 4 or 5 players grafted, the rest were simply not interested. they looked like they couldnt give a fook, and they included " mr committment " himself.

when you spend 12 hours on the road and sixty quid to go and watch a game where players are not even putting in a shift it pisses you off.

and you could say the same about any number of away games ( thankfully i didnt go to wycombe ) and i appreciate those who dont go to away games dont see this, but its hard to put into words just how bad we were at times.

and i just dont see how thats going to improve without changing the playing staff or the manager. half the players are not good enough and the other half are woefully inconsistent.

i honestly think if those saying give turner another season went to away games and saw how bad it was they would have a different opinion.

I understand completely where you are coming from, I was dragged around the country from the age of 8 watching pools and have taken in a fair amount of games and travelling back from the likes of Torquay and Orient are not pleasant experiences for anyone. As much as I would like it we will not win every game and we will play poorly and it is frustrating and expensive. But this is your team and you follow it in the hope that today is going to be the day, today we will wipe these fookers off the pitch and the journey home will be full of songs and beer. And of course it may seem like they just didn't turn up or couldn't be bothered, but in truth thats bollocks as they may earn a higher wage than you or me and many of us, but no more than many offshore engineers, Civil Servants etc and their wage is topped up by bonuses, win bonuses not defeat ones. And I know you dont shout abuse etc (although I have never knowingly met you I know plenty who have) but you have an ability to rise up the spirit in those around you to lash out on the keyboard and that kind of talent, if we could turn it to positive, would make a huge difference. Chip Fireballs Blue and White Army..I can hear it now rolf

Seriously, you know its frustration thats ripping your heart out, because you care passionately about pools as do I and many others and we want the team to succeed therefore if he is here, we want CT to succeed

Don't we?

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:19 am 
Top post Terry. Agree with everything you said. The Vic used to be an intimidating place for teams to visit but not any more. We all know that players and managers have to share most of the responsibility, and there have been plenty of games this season when it is easy for fans to get despondent. But lets remember we are the 12th man - we can make a big difference. Everyone on here can say "it's not me" booing the players and generally slagging them off - but the air of negativity and doom and gloom is down to all of us collectively. Yes, we are entitled to moan and grumble but some of the posts on here recently have been way over the top. As was stated some people have us down before a ball is kicked and seem to be looking forward to seeing the club fail.

I know the club need to start doing work building bridges with supporters, that good rapport between us seems to have evaporated over recent years, but lets put it into perspective.

4 years in the Division for the first time ever, no likelihood of administration. We have a lot more to be happy with than our "friends" down the road.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:23 am 
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The fans are indeed the 12th man but there are 11 others who need to do their bit on the pitch. Getting beat is not the issue for Pools fans, lying down and dying certainly is.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:41 am 
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You sound like a failed footballer jealous of other successful players earnings, the type that would hang round players like a groupie round a musician, pretending to be 'in the know'
:laugh:
good job your not

:laugh:

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:00 pm 
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great post dougoutpaddy, completely agree with you, i cant wait till next season, maybe we will have the same players, maybe the same manager, but its another oppertunity to desperatly try and progress, maybe we havent this year, maybe we havent for the last couple of years, but its a chance, a chance that new signings will improve the squad, a chance our manager will find our best team, a chance a lack of injuries and a motivated squad will push us on.

maybe im a sucker for punishment but i cant wait for next year.

I hope all those who boo'd Roy get a grip, i know theres none on here who did but i will happily take any newcaslte sunderland or boro players that will help us, im as desperate as anyone to get back into the top half of the table and push for the play offs and i pray to god next year it comes together. I can understand all pessimism around supporting this club at the minitute but i hope a good start to next season will motivate everyone again. lets hope ey.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:20 pm 
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DOP's first post on here is excellent. One of the best I've read recently after my own. :wink:

What I don't agree with is this bit

'reality is that we have remained in this division for four consecutive seasons, reality is that Darlo are playing Gateshead while we will be playing Southampton. Reality is that we will be starting next season in League 1 division 2, at least let the season start before you give it the last rites.
Reality is we are Hartlepool United, we are a damn sight better than we where 10 yrs ago and for the previous 30 yrs before that. Wether you think he is up for the job or not is subjective, really. He is there and probably will be for the future season'

I don't care what Darlo are doing, I don't care how many consecutive years we've been in this division and I don't care how good we are compared to the bad old days.

All I am interested in is the eleven players we put out on the pitch and them performing to the best of their ability. We are in a great position financially and we should be making the most of it, did we do that last season? Nowhere near. There were only 4 performers including our super Irish loanee who performed well consistently last season and given the wages these players earn that is not good enough.

I don't care if we're playing Southampton or Southport, if I'm paying a chunk of money to get in to a game then I want the players to perform like they care. I don't expect them to perform excellently every game otherwise I'd 'fuck off and support Chelsea' as no6bus so elegantly suggested the other day but I do expect effort and commitment on a regular basis and that is missing from the club.

I also expect to have a manager to give us the best opportunity of winning every game that we play in.

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:45 pm 
[quote="Tax Paying Poolie"]
We are in a great position financially and we should be making the most of it, did we do that last season?

But are we? OK we aren't in danger of administration - as far as I know - but the club is still losing over £1,000,000 a season and is being bailed out repeatedly by the parent company IOR. With last years crowds I expect that the years loss will be even greater.

We are safe financially because the club refuse to spend money they haven't got. Even though we might all want them too. Yes wages are too high - but we have got to pay acceptable wages to attract even half decent players and to be able to compete at all.

We had the lowest crowds by some margin last season. We have limited corporate facilities so income streams are limited. This is not an excuse but is the reality. Do we want the club to go out spending money they haven't got trying to "buy" success. Look at what has happened to others who have tried to do this and where it has got them.

Im not negative, and don't want to settle for second best. Last season was not good enough and I accept that, but it will always be difficult for Pools to compete at this level - and above. Lets be a bit realistic about this.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:10 pm 
yeah its a good post dugout, but some of us last year did try to change the atmosphere and motivate the players by arranging and participating in a singing section.

The second time we did this, our stewards told us to sit down and refused entry to the section for other Pools fans. sometimes the club dont help....


Give us back the rink end and the place would be bouncing!


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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:10 pm 
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All I want to see is effort, commitment and passion.

Sadly last season there was none.

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:22 pm 
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Tree_With_Hamster wrote:
All I want to see is effort, commitment and passion.


Sounds like Monty Pythons Spanish Inquisition. All I want to see are 3 things effort, commitment, passion and spirit. 4 things effort, commitment, passion, spirit and adherence to tactics. Cardinal Kev, get me the comfy chair.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:26 pm 
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Tree_With_Hamster wrote:
All I want to see is effort, commitment and passion.

Sadly last season there was none.

None eh? None at all?

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:30 pm 
I'll do what I can. :wink:

I followed a Chinese kid tonight, out of the garage, and on the back of his T-Shirt it said 'Never Say Die.' So in my cack Chinese I asked him what it was all about, and he said 'they can kick me but they'll really have to try hard to kill me.'

I said 'who,??' and he said 'those cu ts in the Millhouse seats.....' :wink: Think that's what he said anyway....

Mr Paddy, it says it all, and yet note there are those who want their outrage noted. Fair play, but just because it's said doesn't make it right.


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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:43 pm 
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misterb2001 wrote:
Tree_With_Hamster wrote:
All I want to see is effort, commitment and passion.

Sadly last season there was none.

None eh? None at all?


There was a very sparing amount in the 8 away games and 22 home games I managed to attend last season. Oddly most of the commitment and passion came from the players with less ability.

Also the manager slating the fans and regualrly talking up the oposition has to stop. There were games where I had expected us to lose based on the pre-match interview being so negative, and that isn't negativity from this board that is negativity from the Director of sport acting in the capacity of 1st Team Manager, the man charged with being the most public voice of HUFC in matters relating to on the pitch performance and the man responsible for motivating and getting the best from his squad of players.

There have been times this season where a squad assembled from those in the crowd at Victoria Park would have given more for the team, I admit they may have been thumped 11-0, but they would have scrapped and battled and worked for each other and generally show some of that team spirit we read so much about but never actually see.

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:37 pm 
alienlife wrote:
Also the manager slating the fans and regualrly talking up the oposition has to stop. There were games where I had expected us to lose based on the pre-match interview being so negative, and that isn't negativity from this board that is negativity from the Director of sport acting in the capacity of 1st Team Manager, the man charged with being the most public voice of HUFC in matters relating to on the pitch performance and the man responsible for motivating and getting the best from his squad of players.


Spot on Mr.Life!!!! clappp clappp clappp

But also a brilliant post by Mr.Dugout!!!! clappp clappp clappp


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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 8:23 pm 
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A good post in my opinion.

One matter which i feel worth raising however is that the club need to play their part and if they desperately want the fans to get fully behind the club then replacing the 'failure' currently in charge would help greatly. What better way to rejuvinate the supporters and get a few of the stay-aways back through the gate?? The discontent towards Turner is widespread.

At this point in time the club are in a fairly decent league with some decent players but they could help bring the feel good factor back by making a decent managerial appointment.

*Now awaits a barrage of criticism from the rose tinted speccies* :grin:

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:25 pm 
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it's one thing getting a new manager, but even if that happened Turner would still have to leave the club

I had no time for Danny Wilson, because he had no time for the fans.
However , he has shown this year (and in some respects previous appointments) that he has what it takes
to put a decent side together.
Maybe the rumours are true and he did have his hands tied, and Turner was screwing him from his DOS position.
I firmly believe , this squad of players could achieve a decent league position next season and bring some atmosphere back to the Vic and some passion to the crowd, if they had a decent manager and motivator.

Sadly Turner has proved he is not that man, step up Ken, do the right thing , give us a new leader a give Turner and West their P45's

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 Post subject: Re: Never Say Die?
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:04 pm 
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Hodcroft "trusts" Turner to do things the IOR way - and I honestly believe he will see Pools end up in the Blue Square North before he gets rid of his mate!!! Turner would have to leave himself, and it ain't gonna happen

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