It is utterly irrelevant whether fans 'accept' anything. They can do nothing about it.

At a club like Pools (where support is so very poor that even the people who hang out on the supporters forum boast about not attending games) fans don't even have the clout of saying 'we pay the wages'. We pay about 35% of the wages.

I find it wisest, rather than torment myself just to go and support my team - which I know you do too.

As for your second paragraph above I would say that no-one who has ever spoken to him believes that Chris Turner is happy or content with how this season has panned out. Every manager wants to finish top. But the way it works is that there are 23 other teams all trying to finish top too. Sometimes some of those, particularly the ones with playing budgets 4 or 5 times as big as yours get in the way.

That Robert Snodgrass at Leeds is an outstanding player. Pools saw that and tried to sign him. He went to Leeds because it was Leeds and because they offered much more money. This is just how things are. Occasionally you get a Porter (who is massively injury prone but eventually puts a run together and is magnificent) but teams like Pools with no pulling power face an uphill struggle. I think that in Joe Gamble Turner has recruited a player who could go on to be a huge player for us.

I know I'm swimming against the tide here but for me, when your club has played out of the bottom available division only 9 times in 101 years (and three of those were relegations) then staying up for a fourth season for the first time in our history seems a good outcome.

That attendance wasn't setting the world on fire was it.

The point I'm trying to make is simple, a winning team a winning attitude, will attract the fans back. Or when we made successive play offs were we playing in front of 3000.

Once more the answer is NO and why was that, We were winning, we were competing, we had a manager who didn't make his excuses before a ball was kicked.

Ok there are teams in our league that will attract the better players simply because we cant compete in that way.

But I'm damn sure if I was manager they would be going onto the pitch and F*****G competing there and not having me saying well it;'s a "Big club".

Will people including Turner get this so called F*****G big club out of their heads. They in League 1 (division 3 in old money) WHY, simple they weren't good enough to stay in the championship.

2006/07 season Hartlepool promoted to League 1

2006/07 season Leeds relegated to League 1

They so much bigger than us we've been in the same division for 3 seasons as them. And don't give me the 10points deduction bit they still lost in play offs. Yes the 10 points means they go up, but they tried to live the dream and ended up in administration, so it was their own fault. They blew it last season again and they could even blow it this season.

So if we're both in League 1 next season it means we're as good as them when the 2010/11 season kick offs, as we're both not good enough to go UP and not bad enough to go DOWN.

As the irritating meerkat says............. simples.

I can see where you are coming from but I see this attitude as defeatist. It's as if we should be happy to just about survive relegation for the 3rd season in a row.

No-one can tell me that there hasn't been something off in the last 3 seasons. The apathy from the majority of supporters is clear and a fair few won't even go again. Yes it's an achievement to not be in Division 4, but we should not be teetering on the brink of relegation for the past three years when teams of a similar size like Colchester, Scunthorpe, Bristol Rovers and Carlisle (Wembley, play-offs etc) get some form of success. What's their secret?

The comparisons you make are not fair ones and an example of the delusions of grandeur so prevalent.

Carlisle have frequently in the lat ten years had 12,000 fans for home games when going well and have not only been in the second but the first tier in living memory. They have no competition other than live sheep worrying for 60 miles.

Look at Colchester's attendances in the championship and weep.

If Pools were in the Championship and somehow won the first couple of games you may get a couple of sell-outs. Mostly we would struggle to get 6000.

It can really tarnish your relationship with your team if you have entirely unrealistic expectations. We are Hartlepool - a similar size and type of club to Halifax Town. Only more so:http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsenal-are-the-top-team-of-the-century-742275.html

Stuffing much bigger sides like Carlisle and Millwall gives me as much pleasure now as it ever did. It beats the hell out of playing our real competitors in terms of size like Rochdale and Torquay.

What about ' the best you can hope for is the 5th best finish in the entire history of your club in the same year as a massive clearout of dead wood from the team and losing your best player who refused to stay.'

So in a nutshell if you can't attendance over 6000 forget about it..

How about we just do away with the football altogether and just go by who has the biggest crowds..

there's been a few assumptions made Pools will stay up this season.... I'm not so sure like

Most of the football played this season has been awful.
What has that got to do with foooking crowds???
I actually feel sorry for turner and would love him to succeed but it's plain to see it's not going to happen.
The guy has 7 professional strikers on his books.
I bet there's not many teams above us who can boast that and we still can't score goals.
Il bet we have a budget as large if not larger than most of the teams in this division barring 5 or 6.
You're in a very small minority.
Can't you see that :)

The last three seasons have seen us play mostly awful football, has seen some proper clueless defending and goalkeeping and a lot of it has been long-ball punting hoping we get something out of it. Thank the lord for the likes of Porter otherwise we'd be down playing Darlo right now. The way it's coming across, you are saying that this is success and we should be grateful for it.

I also don't subscribe to the theory of Carlisle being a much bigger club than us. Yes they have potentially bigger crowds but they have the same disadvantage as us by being in an area of the country that is pretty isolated. I'll bet that we are forking out just as much wages per week as them, if not more.

I would say that Hartley has shown glimpses that he could be a good player. He is being played out of position remember.
McSweeney and Fredriksen have hardly had a chance to show how good they are.
Behan looked good at first as he offered something different, can't really argue with that one.
Bjornsson has managed to play and score at full international level. Chris Turners scapegoat when things are going wrong.
Haslam and Larkin - I agree with you.
Sweeneys form has picked up, but with him and Boyd, it seems like they need a manager like Cooper to kick them up the arse to get them playing well.
Collins and Flinders were pretty good at the start of the season but now their form has slipped.

I would take most of these players in our squad over some of the crap i've seen over the years. I think that they are potentially very good players.

I would like someone to suggest a better squad we've ever had.

Isnt that down to bad choices, I mean surely only having 4 strikers on the books and using the wage funds from the other three who should be shown the door one of the 4 I mentioned could be a bigger name, ie Paynter, Morrison, etc who could bang the ball in the net.

That's exactly it.
But as long as IOR continue to give turner the funds to add to an ever increasing squad he will continue to spend it.
I can't believe I've just agreed with you:)

I would say that Hartley has shown glimpses that he could be a good player. He is being played out of position remember.
McSweeney and Fredriksen have hardly had a chance to show how good they are.
Behan looked good at first as he offered something different, can't really argue with that one.
Bjornsson has managed to play and score at full international level. Chris Turners scapegoat when things are going wrong.
Haslam and Larkin - I agree with you.
Sweeneys form has picked up, but with him and Boyd, it seems like they need a manager like Cooper to kick them up the arse to get them playing well.
Collins and Flinders were pretty good at the start of the season but now their form has slipped.

I would take most of these players in our squad over some of the crap i've seen over the years. I think that they are potentially very good players.

I would like someone to suggest a better squad we've ever had.[/quote]

Although I agree with most points there, the last about a better squad I dont. This team from 93' who played at this level also, but in a much loftier league position, was IMO a much stronger and better organised unit than the current one:-

Hodge
Cross
Nobbs
Gilchrist
Tait
McPhail
Emerson
Southall
Olsson
Saville
Honour

This team at one point were joint top of the league, and could perform against the better sides in the division winning away at Stoke and Bolton who finished 1st and 2nd respectively. It also included players who had played at a higher level (Hodge,McPhail,Emerson,Saville) and one's who went on to play at a higher level (Gilchrist, Southall).

heady days until the Gibson saga began to emerge......

if I had to say what was the single most incredible season in my time following Pools 1992/93 was it - in the promotion pack until January, in the relegation zone by April, fighting court orders, goalless runs, fantastic away support at a load of places (Sheffield United especially), stopping the champions -elect from winning promotion on their own ground after inflicting their only defeat on them for months, going doo lally at Blackpool when we scored (and being the very first thing they mentioned on Sports Report on the radio after the match), getting filled in at places (and vice versa) - when football was football!!!!!

The good old days when you would give your right arm for HUFC. Where did that passion go

I get where pde147 is coming from, especially if you consider the question "are we punching above or below our weight". If our wage bill was related directly to the sort of crowds we get, the answer is that we are doing better than we might expect - although then again we might be expecting 1500 more if we were a genuine top 10 side. Essentially the argument is then about whether the money IOR put in is enough for us to expect to be in that position, and I would expect us with that to be at least comfortable in mid-table.

What usually makes the difference at a side like ours (or for that matter Southend, Walsall, Crewe, Colchester....) and makes them suddenly a Championship side is a combination of having a good manager, some time, and maybe some good youngsters coming through the system to provide a squad with real depth. It's interesting to see the 92/3 team invoked, as it shows part of the problem: Gibson's money ran out, yes, but don't forget also that the bad run started when the likes of Honour and Emerson were injured - we simply didn't have the depth in the squad to cope with losing them, or Sav when he was sold later on.

What is clear is that Turner is not the manager to get us beyond the current situation. Whether we have the young players coming through to bulk out the squad is for others to say, who get to watch them - but Turner's squad isn't doing the business, even though some obvious gaps have been filled in (fullbacks for starters). Whether they can play better, or whether they are as good as they get, the buck stops with CT who has had time enough to put the squad together.

Being a soppy, Guardian reading, lefty, limp dicked twat as I am I would like to suggest that both sides have some truth in what they say but that they need to listen to each other more carefully.

My grandad was secretary of Pools for 40-ish years, he did other jobs for them too and never asked for money or got paid. He wasn't the only one, Pools were effectively an amateur outfit but with players that got paid. As a result they were generally crap with the honourable exceptions of the late '50s team, who would never have existed without the maximum wage laws, and the post- Clough promotion team. I started watching Pools in the 70s and we were usually poor and often absolutely dire. The Knowles followed by Murray teams that got up and stayed up were a stunning change from the norm but we dropped back as the foundations were as sandy as the bottom of Gary Gibson's budgie's cage.

In other words we only ever got out of the bottom division because of exceptional managers.

PDE is right to point out that under IOR we are doing better than ever, and all at a time when other clubs are going to the wall. We should be eternally grateful to Harold Hornsey and then IOR but that shouldn't stop us asking reasonable questions like: Given the financial stability, the wage bill and the professional set up shouldn't an average manager be able to build a team that competes in the top half of division 3?

Going on about Turner being a silly boy or asking why he can't sign goal machines, when anyone who can perform that trick regularly is managing two divisions higher, are both just different forms of being daft. On the other hand asking whether Turner is the right man to motivate and organise a squad at this level seems pretty reasonable to me. I think Hodcroft will be asking that at the end of the season whatever the final outcome. For now though he'll just be backing Turner, trying to keep his confidence up, too late for anything else. It's the only thing that will help now and maybe we should do the same.

I shall now spark up my hookah pipe and commence meditation....

concurring fully with this statement.. The crux of the matter is Turner is not performing as I would expect with the resources at his disposal.. In any other industry he'd be asked to clear his desk..

The point and the whole point of the conspiracy theory is it in IOR best interest to keep us where we are to ensure the ground sale goes through at a reasonable price!

I think its deeper than that. The teams of 92/93 and the Cooper era had the two ingredient that the current crop lack; passion and bottle. This group of 'players' seem to not that bothered about performing poorly. No suprise seeing that most of them are guarenteed their appearance bonuses irrespective of how badly they play.

I reckon we are three or four players away from a good team but even with those additions Chris Turner lacks the tactical nouse to get the best out of them. If he were to sign another batch of players in the close season we couuld look forward to more of the same next term.

We must get a manager who can stir a shit storm in the dressing room and get these people to earn their not inconsiderable wage packets. We have been proven wrong about Danny Wilson thats for sure. He did well at his previous clubs and is doing fantastically well at Swindon who I predict will go up with Norwich. In retrospect, he did fantastically well at Pools given the circumstances. We just didn't realise how deep the problems went.

I have believed for some time that there is something deep within the club that undermimes the manager and that undercurrent, like it or not. is traceable back to the Watson era and his 'this bus drives itself' bollocks. Sacred cows have to be slaughtered and the manager allowed to manage with 100% support from the board. That includes not having Chris Turner looking over his shoulder.

Although I agree with most points there, the last about a better squad I dont. This team from 93' who played at this level also, but in a much loftier league position, was IMO a much stronger and better organised unit than the current one:-

Hodge
Cross
Nobbs
Gilchrist
Tait
McPhail
Emerson
Southall
Olsson
Saville
Honour

This team at one point were joint top of the league, and could perform against the better sides in the division winning away at Stoke and Bolton who finished 1st and 2nd respectively. It also included players who had played at a higher level (Hodge,McPhail,Emerson,Saville) and one's who went on to play at a higher level (Gilchrist, Southall).[/quote]


Gilchrist was amazing.

it certainly makes me wonder now, how much interference Wilson was getting - and which players he was being told to sign, which ones to select to play etc etc

Swindon's win away at Southampton last night must have really sent a shiver down Leeds' spine after they had just lost there on Saturday. That 5 points gap to 2nd place now looks easily bridgeable for them. Swindon will beat Pools up here, I have few doubts about that


I am now concerned Pools will not get another single point for the next 5 or 6 matches, by which time we will be entrenched in 2nd or 3rd bottom place. In fact, I will be surprised if this does NOT happen

So much for our so-called easier-looking run of fixtures.

It is up to them all not to get beat on Friday. If they do, then this season will start to become the nightmare I feared it would, with Laurel and Hardy in charge

Looking down those figures the stand out one for me is Fred Westgarth. A 47% ratio, but over a 14 year career as Manager.

Unfortuately he passed away shortly after the 4-3 defeat to Manure in 1957. Could probably still do better than Tubby though. Anyone know a good medium.

I cant be arsed reading this thread but does pde still come accross as being Chris Turner?

Although I agree with most points there, the last about a better squad I dont. This team from 93' who played at this level also, but in a much loftier league position, was IMO a much stronger and better organised unit than the current one:-

Hodge
Cross
Nobbs
Gilchrist
Tait
McPhail
Emerson
Southall
Olsson
Saville
Honour

This team at one point were joint top of the league, and could perform against the better sides in the division winning away at Stoke and Bolton who finished 1st and 2nd respectively. It also included players who had played at a higher level (Hodge,McPhail,Emerson,Saville) and one's who went on to play at a higher level (Gilchrist, Southall).[/quote]

Very good first XI that. I can't remember the squad players with any accuracy though so is it better overall? I really don't know.

Unless Chris Turner went to English Martyrs between 1981 & 1986, no