I haven't got a list, Compo...I would imagine the experiments are in the relevant scientific journals.
What I'm saying is you can't get round Monbiot's point that it's futile having an opinion about climate change unless you know the work that's been done in the area. Everyone, including you, is more or less agreed that the climate is changing. Most people are also agreed that governments are either exploiting the situation or incompetent to address it.
But what a lot of people's arguments boil down to is:' it's all about tax, therefore climate change isn't happening', which is totally illogical.

agree a lot of people argument is its about tax, but why should a small countries population in the North atlantic get taxed even more than they already do (which is the highest in the EU) when the effect they have on co2 world emittions is miniscule. Individuals tax (ie what comes out of my pay packet) should be based on their country of residences overall world output. People in England having little windmills on their house, solar pannels and driving hybrid cars will do not a blind bit of difference, like when an oil tanker spills its load in the sea the planet as a whole barely even notices.

Sigh.

Well, anyway, I agree with katcha.

Dont you agree that people should be taxed in relation to their countries outputs. I dont mind paying tax on climate change but why should I be taxed more than a person from say the USA or china that are producing more co2

the point I was making is that if it was based upon co2 output the UK would pay sweet FA as although Britain bangs its drum in these conferences what we do will not make a blind bit of difference to the world, Miss Grabec cant see that.

It's not that I can't see it, it's just that it's not what I was talking about. It's a different question to whether or not there is climate change and what is causing climate change. That's my point, really: that people aren't making distinctions

I do like these emotional responses, of the sort that men are always saying are feminine intuition.

I seem to remember that the last great cause celeb of the greenies was acid rain, back in the 80's this stuff would wipe out all the trees within a decade thus causing the end of humanity.

Is that why mountain dew was so "big" in the early 90's and now has disapeared because the acid rain has stopped

Can I just say the only way anyone will ever stop climate change and shut up environmentalists is not to tax people or pump money into renewable energy its simple give it to the scientists and biomedical students in a lab.

If we find a way via a pill (which is being trying to be developed in Germany) or injection to give to farmed live-stock to break down methane. If we do this then we can all bomb around in hummers and throw CO2 into the air like no tomorrow as this would reduce the worlds total of greenhouse gases by around 25% in one go.

But we wont do this anyway as the only people who will make money are roche and pfizer (ie drug companies) and not the lovely governments who think all problems can be resolved by taxing us.

Here in good old heavily polluting, dog murdering, commy China, I live in the Green City. Trees?? You can't move for the buggers, they line every street and the main road through the city is lined with them, two deep either side in some places.

Point being, believe it or don't believe it, these criminals will thrust it upon you for their own reasons, 'cos you have to have something to frighten the people with. The sum total of the 'War on Terrorism' is a horrible incident on the London Underground, nothing that wasn't happening with the IRA twenty years ago on a monthly basis, but now you have to jump through hoops in order to get on the plane for your fortnight in Tenerife. Generates jobs and income and lo and behold increased airport taxes, security charges and all manner of bollocks that empties your pockets.

No-one here pays green tax. Yes the industrial areas are filthy, yes people suffer from localised pollution. Didn't they always since the Industrial Revolution?? The Government relocates these people and bleedin' Human Rights Watch starts squeaking from New York about it. OK, we'll move the plant, take it down, sack it's workers and move it to Filthville, Guangdong. Can we just ask how much your Chief Executive gets paid?? Thought not....

Yes I think there's some basis in what they say, but this carbon thing is a joke. We're all agreed that they're talking about .02% change being possible but surely the greenhouse gases are more volatile and they appear to be doing bugger all about that?? It's got so ridiculous that when I asked a class of my kids to name two poisonous things, half of them gave the answer 'Co2.'

All the experts are doing are recording data, feeding it into a programme they designed to 'their' spec and pissing themselves when they look at the results. What we all fail to appreciate is, that like the housing market which got us all in this financial cesspit, they blithely assumed trends would continue upwards, which they don't. Just like house prices were set to rise forever, according to the financial wunderkind, so the same affliction appears to apply to the climate 'experts' and their sterile logic, which if fully applied, according to their data sampling, all graphs would just travel in one direction.
Cue the real reason.... consience taxes on the liberal guilt reflex and the terminally gormless, it's all about money.

Err....I've got to add like that the eight trees I'm planting along with 60 shrubs are part of a little landscaping job I'm doing . It's a nice little earner actually.

Did you not join in with this last Saturday? I would have thought 3PM would have been a better time to do it, to fit in with the witty name for the occasion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/breathingplaces/treeoclock/

I didn't know about that but planted a lot of trees in the Plant a Tree In 73 campaign when I think we were fighting the onset of a new ice age. And so it goes.

Best plant a cactus then ...or even a tumbleweed?

I'd like to plant a politician, preferably that harridan Harriet Harman, up to her neck in sand and then invite her 'sisters' to bash her to death with a shovel. Brass scoop, not steel scoop, brass rivets though.

Then dig her up, dress her as a nun, and let Cornelius do his worst.

That would make my day.....

so it's not just me who feels like that, thank God....

As with any scientific question, there are those who do not agree with the consensus. In a postmodern world in which we are taught to question orthodoxy, that's not surprising really. As for media reporting, given that the majority of evidence now points in one direction, an argument could be made that the media give too much emphasis to the skeptics given their overall place in the debate.

Again, it could be argued that the skeptics get too much coverage given the extent of the scientific consensus. Additionally, the media is not a monolith, but is much more heterogeneous with a number of outlets actively pushing a skeptical agenda.

So the opposition to the 'debate' has to be silenced eh, ? Very post modern.

When the deniers decided that 'global warming' was a value laden term and 'climate change' sounded more benign. As we're in the realms of conspiracy theories here, the adoption of the phrase by the media could be used as evidence as part of a conspiracy to obfuscate.

Is this one of those tedious breat beating long winded liberal guilt laden rants against the forces of the dark DENIERS... If so, wake me up when it's over.

But the social (and economic) cost of such a migration will be catastrophic. We already complain that we have too many migrants; if global warming does displace peoples, are you happy to open the doors of the UK?

On a per capita basis, you'd pay more than anyone in the developing world.

Where did I say that? I was countering the belief that this is a media led conspiracy.

Also, given that postmodernism questions meta-narratives, to say that it's postmodern to silence debate displays a very peculiar understanding of that term.

If scientists were worthy of the title they would be working on ways to capture carbon and repair the hole(s) in the ozone layer and not scaremongering. Maybe they are and I’ve just not heard about it.

Last night I caught a bit of a programme where Michael Portillo was saying that global warming may be beneficial to some regions such as Siberia where they will be able to cultivate land there.

Most conspiracy theories are not based on reality.

exactly what i said earlier in the thread greenland are now growing crops so its swings and round-a-bouts

They are; there was someone on radio 4 the other day talking about how dumping lime in the ocean may help the sea absorb more CO2.

And the associated social displacement is simply a price worth paying?

pissing in the wind springs to mind, like them clowns who think the panda can be saved and pump so much money into it, the creature has entered a extinction vortex and will be dead before I am.

What do you mean by 'it's happened before and the world survived'?

So why bother with any scientific endeavour if the problem is difficult? Are you suggesting that we should only address 'easy issues', if such things actually exist? Just as well the great minds of the world didn't take your approach of sitting on one's hands in the face of adversity. Fiddling while Rome burns?

Snowy, I'd have thought your general skepticism would lead you to be more open to the ideas of the global warming lobby. You've stated on here that you view 'shopping malls' (terrible term, I know) are the new churches and shopping the new religion. Given that the 'meta-narrative' of the west is the cult of individualism as expressed through turbo capitalism, hyper consumerism and the belief that self-expression is best performed through consumption at the expense of meaningful social relationships, it could be argued that it is exactly this 'belief system' that has caused the predicament we are in today. Does not consistency call for a rejection of hyper-consumerism (with the added benefit of thereby reducing CO2 emissions)?

'Fraid not.

Salutations returned (but no card as it's killing the planet).

I'm sure all cards are now derived from renewable pine.......

I think we are at cross purposes here. I am probably more irritated by the sheer rampant consumerism and pointless waste that typifies society today. In the name of progress we are told we can have what we want yet no one seems prepared to say Whoa, eneoughs enough, it's all about unlimited choice, that will never change because we have the same half soaked politicians who want to get everything by concensus trying to tell us, that's us, they have the answer by getting us to make sacrifices to cover up their profligacy.,,, and for which they will no doubt take the credit. Do we need another new style of car, or phone or TV, constantly chasing nothing, sometimes, those who want to 'save' us are the wrong people to ask, as they're the ones who lead us here in the first place.
Rather than say lets change to what we need, they try to continue fuelling demand by looking for new ways to fuel it in a 'green way'. It's about time they started reviewing the very basics of the way society functions and staring from a clean sheet. They're just populist tinkerers courting the public with one eye on their own glory with the other.
If you follow my rant Mr Fatman

"It don't matter if you're black or white" sang deceased paedophile Michael Jackson. Try telling that to a farking polar bear!

This Copenhagen jolly has agreed that the EU will donate 7.2 BN euros. Now hang on, the EU is a conglomerate of 20 odd countries isn't it? So how come our end of this wedge is 2.4bn?

Theres no point fighting Mother Nature.

Whatever happens, happens.

HTH.

Mr I, we are currently giving hundereds of millions in aid to develop poorer regions of India to supply basic infrastructure, whilst on the other hand the Indian Government is spending billions developing a nuclear submarine programme....

Basically we're picking up a third of the bill. Is Uncle Gordon making promises he won't have to keep if he loses the election, a bit like a bankrupt going mad on his credit card and buying popularity before they take it off him.