Russia couldn't beat their relatively unarmed neighbour who didn't even have its NATO hand me downs at the start, hardly any air force and no navy. They're creeping forwards as they don't care about bullet sponge tactics.

The Russian economy is in tatters, they've made themselves China's bitch and had to go cap in hand to North Korea. Not to mention actually causing NATO to grow. No Black Sea Fleet, arms reserves now blackened scrap in Ukraine. Nice work Vlad.

This isn't about an underestimating of Russia, it's about their underestimating of Ukraine. Dialogue has always been needed but if it's just one side getting everything they want and an open invitation to have another go later then it is no good.

I'd say Russia could easily have defeated Ukraine using their full military capability. Don't think the intent was ever to take control of the entire country. Putin measured his aggression against his anticipation of the response from the West. He's going to get his objectives in a land grab, guarantee of no NATO membership for Ukraine, and replacing Zelensky, with the added bonus of warmer relations with the US and lifting of sanctions with the prosperity that will bring.

You sound like a Russian bot.

On the bunker? They get everywhere.

I cant see Putin conceding anything irrespective of how bad their economy is, Putin doesn’t give a toss about his people sending hundreds of thousands to their deaths already. The Russian population have no idea what is actually going on, the propaganda machine will be in force no doubt.
He can just keep bombing Ukraine from a distance taking out their infrastructure hoping they will give in eventually and Ukraine allies will have no funding for the supply of weapons. Unless there is a revolution nought will change in Russia as long as Putin is in power.

And re arming ready for the next invasion.

Unless Trump and Putin agree a non aggression pact. Although if there was another invasion down the line I'm not sure they'll get huge support from the US anyway, and the fragmented EU and rest of Europe are essentially powerless.

I would think Putin will have his puppet elected (Ukraine) before long anyway.

Zelensky does not do himself any favours, Doing a Photo Shoot for Vogue with his Mrs.

A few European countries now saying they won’t be putting boots on the ground in a peace keeping force, music to Putins ears.

Further evidence of the failing EU project. Trying to develop a superstate of nations without a co-ordinated military force or even strategy.
Trump warned NATO and Europe last time he was in power to start paying their way but they didn't listen. To say he's not going to keep spending billions to support a non-strategic, non NATO country will go down well with the vast majority of Americans.

The problem here is that successive UK Govts have demonised not just Putin - which is partly understandable - but all things Russian for the past 12 years. Biden was of a similar mentality but Starmer is going to have to get his head around the simple fact that Trump and the Republicans do not share this mindset. The UK is not in a position to throw its weight about, those days died around 80 years back.

Johnathan Pie’s take on it,
https://youtu.be/Jk0nUUqG_Ag?si=SMWmXqL_cwHKQf7m

He was right about that as he is wrong about Zelensky. Usual mixed bag from him. However I'm not sure how trustworthy the USA is going to be considered from now on. Can't stick to promises and even if they do, it can only be considered reliable until the next Presidential elections.

It's brilliant. Nailed it.

Not got time to read this whole thread but someone please reassure me that no-one is sticking up for Putin/Trump and suggesting Ukraine actually started the war, and equally no-one thinks internationally recognised borders are up for grabs? Thanks.

Theres 100% going to be border changes, think Zelensky himself acknowledged that about a month ago. Who's going to stop Putin if Trump won't, time for Europe to stand up and take ownership of security instead of cutting defence spending on the premise that Uncle Sam's got our back.

The US put their thumbs heavily on the scales of Ukraine elections and the 'natural peoples uprising' around a decade ago--so some stones and glass houses here.

quoting Neville Chamberlain (because everything is fucking WW2 all over again with these people) and calling people pussies (havent seen him over in Ukraine) yeh some really original stuff there !
He really knows the square root of fuck all and shows it through the entire clip....like I wonder what happened in the Ukraine in 2014 ?---anyone ? anyone?
Only part he almost gets right is that Europe need to pull their fingers out of their arses and put their money where their mouths are!

Sorry, Russia already been blown out of the water like a Black Sea Fleet ship.

I’m not saying that Russia didn’t start the war but they were definitely provoked. Numerous times.
The hostilities and provocations between Russia and Ukraine didn’t start in 2022. The provocation actually began back in the 90s.
It is just a pity it’s taken Russia so long to challenge the incumbents in Kiev.

No--I think some/most people realize that a complicated issue cant be summarized in one sentence--I am actually enjoying reading diff peoples perspectives though

yes I think people are struggling to understand the distinction between being justified and being unprovoked

If I call someone a c u n t in the pub and they put me in hospital----was that action justified...no, was the action unprovoked though?--I would also say no.

the US would NEVER interfere in another countries elections....




https://content.time.com/time/covers/0, ... 15,00.html

The only thing Ukraine did wrong was underestimate Russias willingness to commit utter evil bastardry.

Ukraine maybe--what about the US and the rest of Europe---as I said previously they have used Ukraine and the Ukrainians really badly in a wider proxy pissing contest with Russia

The fact they will never join Nato has been known and stated for 30+years (forget what's 'fair and right for sovereign nations'--those are the practical facts) and it was wrong to give them false hope as the west knew what the ultimate end game would be

An off the shoulder flak jacket, worn nonchalantly in an enchanting shade of wild khaki.anyone..,

What people have failed to realise is a lot of this is about China.
Trump wants to drive a wedge between Russia and China.
This mineral deal that Trump wants from Ukraine is also to take control of their oil and gas. He can then have control of their ports and their strategic infrastructure.
Kissinger tried this as far back as 1971 when he visited China to try to drive a wedge between China and the Soviet Union.
Trump wants to soften tensions with Russia and try to isolate China.
Trump actually said only last year that this is his aim.
China is Russia’s most important partner. Putin isn’t daft. He’s well aware of this. He acknowledged this when he was interviewed by Tucker Carlson last year.
Ukraine is of no concern to Trump. He doesn’t care about the population or the demolition of their cities.
Basically trump is imposing economic colonialism on Ukraine. He’s only after what he can get. It’s so blatant. Basically he wants 50% of everything.
Chinas economy is booming and Trump wants a slice of the cake. In fact, he wants the whole cake and Ukraine is his first port of call.

Yes and halfwit Biden pushed Russia and China together by going all in on this War and associated sanctions!

Too late for that. Russia is China's bitch now. Nobody is going to trust US deals, especially as they can be torn up every four years.

Marco Rubio is obsessed with China. He’s been saying it for years that China is the USA’s biggest threat.
Chinas economy and manufacturing capacity is massive and its Rubios job to undermine that.
There much more chance of a war between the USA and China in the next couple of years rather than the USA and Russia.

Just watched this...100% true...FACT!!!

He is a comedian the same as Zelensky was, maybe Johnathan could be PM one day !

I think we all know the easiest least complicated way for this war to be resolved is to declare it The Riviera of Eastern Europe. Everyone likes fun fairs and candy floss.

Putin has played a blinder, the West thought they could grind them down with Sanctions, but Russia's economy has actually got better not worse, as they now sell their oil and gas to the Brics countries.

Without being bankrolled by NATO, Russia would've wiped the floor with Ukraine within months and taken over the whole of Ukraine, but they don't and never wanted to do that. They only want to be left alone, to get on with what all countries and governments should be getting on with, making their countries better and taking people out of poverty not plunging millions into it, note that Russia and China, and most of the Brics countries are doing this, and the West is not, and boy, do we in the West not like that.

As for Russia taking over Europe, what bullshit, if that was the case why did the Soviet Union upon the ending of the cold war, quite happily give up former Eastern Bloc countries? They gave them up because they couldn't afford to keep them under their wing, and the restless natives were a constant problem and threat. Also if Russia's army is so shite, how they hell are they going to bulldoze their way through to the shores of Dover? come on. tell me? you can't have it both ways.

Where has this love of Ukraine come from? why do the British hate Russia so much? when both were part of the same Soviet Union not so long back. You are being taken for a ride, and very soon it is going to hit you in the pockets, increased tax rises or more public service cuts, which do you prefer? Wake up FFS!

The only aggressors here are the West and NATO, with Ukraine the Patsies and the Green Goblin the fall guy.

Looking forward to seeing our inglorious leader Keir Stormer, getting put in his place by Trump this week. Stormer the cowardly useless fooker, even has to take Macron with him for back up.

This is about ‘zones of influence’…it had been that way since 1945…it was so built into my psyche that I realised sometimes best to keep the status quo……how much chaos has the West created in the last 50 years ‘freeing countries’ from their autocratic rulers but creating basket cases by meddling but forgetting most of the world ain’t democracies and survive.
We do meddle, and Starmer playing Rambo is pitiful…. which will fizzle out like a cheap firework when told to by the real fixers.

Starmer and Macron and the rest should be focusing on getting on board with the peace process instead of warmongering - new sanctions on Russia, an extra £3bn per year as long as the conflict continues, our troops into Ukraine potentially.......!!!
Is he mad? It's over and has been since Trump said he's going to finish it, he'll get a new arsehile ripped when he meets Trump this week. Where is he going to "find" this money, we're on the bones of our arses with a £22m black hole and public services crumbling with worse to come?
Prolong the war or try to get the most palatable peace deal are the choices and he chooses prolonging the war (even though it's end is inevitably close) more avoidable deaths, and more of our taxes spent overseas. F*cking idiot.

I’ve always been dubious about this war. We’ve been fed a story about how Ukraine is blameless and innocent but how many of us here knew much about this brewing situation before the invasion kicked off?

Nothing justifies Putin’s murderous actions however deep down I can see what’s got him and his cronies upset.

Imagine if Scotland had voted for independence back when they had their referendum, imagine they’d won, then bit by bit over the years communists and Russian type politicians started taking control until we were looking at virtually living next door to Russia! I don’t think anyone in this country would want that!

Trump is right to want to close the war down, it’s just that at present he looks to be ballsing things up.

It's not warmongering. It IS the peace process. Remember the BIG stick. Basics.

I'm glad you see Russias point of view because no bugger else does. He can't even keep his story straight, even Russians can't even keep up. Plenty of street interviews prove that.

End of the day, the war HAS to stop but it's disgusting that the focus of this thread h has been on anything but the evil of Putin and his cronies. Bloody shameful.

He's a blunt instrument publicly, but peace negotiations are in the hands of much more politically astute and diplomatic people - surely?
Let's not forget that the vast majority of Americans are inward focused and not really caring about what happens outside their own State never mind outside their nation. Too much recent history of countless US deaths for what turned out to be no or very little US gains.
His bluster and lies will be believed by many and his talk of bringing peace will ultimately enhance his personal popularity whilst saving them billions of dollars, and prompting the rest of the West to face up to their own defence responsibilities. It's a huge win for Trump regardless of how we view his comments.

It"s ridiculous how Trump's supporters say things like....

"oh, you shouldn't take what he says at face value"

"oh, he sometimes says things he doesn't mean to shake things up"

"oh, sometimes he says one thing but means another"

This is a man who talks of taking over Canada and Greenland! He talks complete nonsense at times and makes out he rules the world. With him in charge of the USA things have become far more complicated, quite simply, he made out finishing the Ukraine war would be a doddle, he said he could do it in a day, yeah right.......

An outside agency (the UK) offering £3bn a year to continue the fight for as long as it takes is the very definition of warmongering.
New sanctions against Russia imposed unilaterally and whilst peace negotiations will not help. Once it's settled will the isolated UK keep sanctions in place? I'd guess at the first meeting Trumps negotiators has with Putins they'd have asked what does Russia want to end the war, and guessing here again bit I reckon they'd have replied something along g the lines if - to keep some if not all occupied territory, no EU or more importantly NATO membership guaranteed, all frozen assets released, all sanctions lifted, as starting points. And guess what, they'll get them all.
Listen to Lammy today and it's all about keeping up the fight which can't be won without US military and financial support. Not a word about negotiation, peace, bringing an end to a huge financial drain on our finances, helping to rebuild Ukraine, what the outcome might look like etc
As for disgusting, bearing in mind any governments first priority is to defend and look after it's own citizens first and foremost. Taking £2.4m from pensioners and most likely condemning 4000 to die prematurely (and the added burden on our NHS) while giving £3bn to a distant country which is not an ally to us is pretty disgusting too.
All efforts should be on ending the conflict in the best possible way. The winners will be (and always were going to be) Russia and the US - might wins out everything. Might not be what we want but it's inevitable, so why are the little old UK and France trying to prolong it rather than influence the peace?

There you go again. The old, exhaustively disproven notion that security ends at the borders. How do you think you get to hold any cards in any negotiations? By singing songs? Welfare means nothing without security.

Europe could definitely support Ukraine if Russia don't concede anything. It's just a matter of will. We could also provide European peacekeepers to provide the guarantees. It's all about the guarantees. Without them there's no point talking about redrawing borders which I think Uktaine would concede to if they could see they had a future.

Which is exactly why the focus should be on Europe getting involved in the peace negotiations isn't it?
All Starmer and Lammy and Macron have talked about is just further irritating the process. Maybe it's just deflection to get us and the French populace to forget about the state of our own country and our inept governments eh?

Again, getting beyond the irreleavant obsession with Starmer or whatever loony lefty or right wing wretch people want in power in countries across Europe, it means nothing without security.

I'm not talking about Starmer, it started when Boris was PM.
I'll say it again, the war effectively is ending so we should stop trying to influence the war. All of our focus should be on the peace and how we can influence that, being an outrider and announcing unilateral measures now will not get us anywhere near the negotiating table and in fact weakens our alliance with our biggest ally.

Starmer is doing an impression of a poor man’s Churchill, but his offering of increasing defence spending from 2.3% to 2.5% within three years shows just out of touch with reality he is.
If you’re gonna talk tough, have the power to back it up, our armed forces are on the bones of their arses.

If that was merely all you were talking about, our positions would be a lot closer.

Needs to be higher. Cannot disagree.

Good post.

Might have a point if the zonesof influence were still those of the cold war.