As Mark Hughes gets the Southampton job have a listen to this from Bob Mortimer that he did a couple of months ago on Athletico Mince, it’s funny because it’s right. How the fuck do the likes of Pardew, Hughes, Allardyce and like keep exchanging Premier League jobs when they are shite? Quite amusing that he includes Pulis in it as it was before he got the Boro job! Surely it’s time these clubs gave managers like Chris Wilder a go?

https://youtu.be/S604AHuY4kc

It does seem like an old boys network , though not sure if they are totally shite. All have had a degree of success, even if it was keeping unfashionable clubs in the Premier league up. As a thought . do you not think the way the Prem Lge is set up now, apart from the clubs at the top, the next 12 or 18 are always going to be sacking managers and recruiting from those sacked by other clubs in the 12 or 18?.

Anyway Swansea gave that bloke from Sheff Wed a chance , but it would be nice if likes of Wilder was given a chance. If he did well in his first Prem job, maybe he would become a member of the old boys network himself. No doubt Dyche and Hughton will get their chance at likes of Southampton, WBA , West Ham, Palace in the not too distant future.

The struggling clubs in the prem are scared shitless of appointing an up and coming manager in case it blows up in their faces. Quite amusing really when you consider West Brom have has both Pulis and Pardew and look how rubber ducked they are.

It’s the same mentality as those who were immediately calling for Harrison to be replaced by an experienced manager who knows the National League.

Either you go for someone who has experience in doing a similar job previously (but obviously not doing it well enough to still be in that previous job), or you go for someone new, who may be a spectacular success, a spectacular failure, or somewhere inbetween.

I don’t agree with that. The experienced managers I said I would go for at this level were John Still and Gary Mills, multiple promotion and trophy winners. They just don’t know the level they know the formula to get out of it.

The likes of the Premier League managers mentioned haven’t won a thing, and lose miles more games than they win and barely have an original thought or comment between them they are just considered ‘safe’ at this level a new manager gets a job most months in a season.

Bottom 5 managers in the prem

16th Moyes
17th Hughes
18th woy
19th lambert
20th pards

All appointed After mid season panic sacking to “steady the ship”

Fair enough can’t count Hughes in that but the rest just swap jobs from failing team to the next n shuffle along each summer waiting for sometime to be sacked so they can come in n “do a job”

The only way a young English manager gets a chance is to take a team up there like howe or dyche.

Funnily enough I read Sunday Moyes could take Sunderland West Ham down n still be within his 6 year man united contract.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You've nailed it, they are seen as a 'safe' option plus the fact they look more presentable in front of camera. Chris wilder doesn't stand a chance until he gets a £100 hair cut and softens his accent to 'south Sheffield'.....

Hughes has gone up two places in the table swapping jobs in the British managers club.

...and how much has he made during that time!

Mark Hughes has done OK at Blackburn and earlier on at Stoke. But the point stands - why isn't Sol Campbell, the best football mind around, given a chance?

So a manager sacked a few months ago for fear of relegation gets employed by a rival to stop them being relegated? And it is foreigners that are barring the way for young English managers?

In any other job if you get sacked for being a failure you would struggle to find another job.
In Football managerial failures are sacked, compensated then usually walk into another 3 year contract, takes about 3/4 sackings before clubs realise they are not up to it. By then the manager in question is a millionaire with all the compo and gets a pundits job.

As I said in my earlier post, when the likes of Dyche and Hughton run out of magic dust, their teams struggle and they get sacked, , they will become the new Pardews, Moyes of the world, living off their early success at keeping Burnley and Brighton punching above their weight, its just the way it is, not too dissimilar to real life, were directors and CEOs of failing firms manage to get a job at some other big corporation.

You're only going to have so many clubs that are successful, even by their own criteria, in any given period. For example, there are more clubs hoping to stay up than there are places that keep you up. Clubs end up thinking along the lines of 'he did a job for them for a few years before it went wrong, maybe he could do the same for us?' It looks like a better short term bet than a manager that has never worked in the Premier League before, the logic being that somebody who has proved they can do it (but not always) is a safer option than somebody who hasn't proved anything yet.

If clinging on to the gravy train for another year is your only priority these decisions make sense. I'd be very pissed off watching a club that only aspired to being cannon fodder for the top six a bit longer though - much prefer Burnley's approach although it will be interesting to see how long it lasts if Dyche leaves and they find themselves in trouble.

The reality is that at the top level managers are generally about the same. That goes for English, Scottish or International. They all know how to play to the strengths of their teams, they understand pressing, they understand parking the bus, they usderstand dosification. The difference between most managers is minimal. What makes the difference is the players at the disposal of the manager and this comes down to money, inheritance, scouting and youth schemes.

If you put Pulis or Pardew in charge of the Chelsea or Manchester United team they would do just as well as the current incumbents.

There is also the random factor. Luck really comes into it. Benitez won the Champions league after being 3-0 down at half-time. That consolidated his reputation.

Leicester City won the premiership with a manager generally considered as average.

Mourinho inherited an excellent group at Porto and won the Champions league. On the strength of this he has been with a string of top clubs and obviously has been able to win more. Luck breeds success and success breeds more success. I watched Mourinho for several years, week in week out in Spain and became convnced that he hasn't got a clue about management or tactics. And in the last 5 years of Fergie's reign his tactics in Europe were pathetic. His last Champions league win certainly falls into the 'lucky' category with 2 goals in the last couple of minutes

If you have umpteen managers playing with many teams over many years there will be statistical aberrations such as Leicester - it's predictable. Who and when are not.

Our so-called English managers are all managing the teams with the lowest budgets and least talented squads - of course they are going to fail.

Moyes made a great success of himself on low budget at Everton, but failed at United. Ferguson was failing at United after the first four years. More money, better players coming through gave him success.

How anyone can seriously compare the squads of Liverpool, Manchster City, Chelsea and Spurs with West Brom, Stoke, and Southampton and then point a finger at the manager baffles me.

Give West Brom to Guardiola, Mourinho, Conte and they will fail.

Really good points there charco. I agree that it is mainly down to the players available to 'manage' that determines success for premier league clubs.
Where a manager can earn his wages is in the selection of the right players. Brian Clough will always rank as a great manager for me because anyone who could recognise that three of Pools' players could do a job for him at the top level of English football was a genius.

I reckon it's a 'secret society'..nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more.

Utter, utter nonsense. The managers you mention here have won nothing. Moyes got his chance to beautifully highlight how great these managers are and fluffed it like his flimsy fringe.

I would genuinely love it if you put a Pulis or a Pardew in charge of Manchester United or Chelsea because the outcome would be hilarious. Why do you think it hasn’t happened?

In terms of Benitez. His achievements include

2 La Liga titles with Valencia (not Real Madrid or Barcelona)
FA Cup
Champions League (one win, runner up once)
Europa League winner
UEFA manager of the year two years running

Leicester won the league when there were practically no opposition and they had a perfect storm.

I don’t like Mourinho at all but anyone with a hole in their arse can see the honours he’s won. Luck doesn’t come into it however Manchester United hit very lucky last season with their opponents.

Moyes won nothing at all at Everton and continues to win nothing

Give West Brom to Guardiola, Mourinho or Conte and they’d be in the top 8 instead of relagation certainties.

My advice is stay off the quaaludes

.. errr, I have already explained that one, pay attention.



A perfect case in point - he inherited a bunch of players put together by Hector Cúper and suddenly becomes brilliant. What about all of the clubs he took down or was sacked from?



.. and whose argument does that support?



It doesn't take a genius to see the irony in that statement!



and the point was, had he been given the run (and money) that Ferguson was, maybe the outcome would have been different.



It's "relegation", and that dumb statement clearly shows that you could do with a few of my happy pills.

Too daft to argue with. Enjoy your Sunday

Actually, no I’ll respond...

The Benitez list of honours I’ve quoted was from 3 different clubs. Did he inherit squads every time? Your argument here lacks depth

Benitez is a sought after manager as he has won major trophies. So is Mourinho. So is Guardiola.

Moyes won nothing at Everton and has one Community Shield victory against Wigan to his name. If Moyes was given more time he would have knocked Manchester United back 20 years. That’s why he was sacked with 5 years left of his contract which he would still be honouring if he wasn’t utter,y clueless.

Pulis, Pardew, Hodgson, Hughes an Allardyce have never and will never win a major trophy as they are dinosaurs of the game and quite some way behind The likes of Howe and Dyche, who would probably turn their clubs around if given the chance.

And the fact that you’ve picked up on a spelling mistake makes it look like you are clutching at straws, which, of course, you are.

Seeing as you’re 30 years behind in footballing terms, enjoy Last of the Summer Wine and That’s Life after your weekly bath

As you seem unable to tell your arse from your elbow I will desist and leave you content with other people's opinions. Keep believing.

Have a happy weekend, also.

I’m unable to tell my arse from my elbow says the visionary who thinks Moyes, Pulis and Pardew would succeed at big clubs, despite the fact that the most successful one was sacked 1 year into a 6 year contract by the richest club in the world

Lovely stuff. Do you have any more of this authentic frontier gibberish? It’s spellbinding

Don't forget that your hero Benitez was also sacked 6 months into his contract with Real Madrid ...

... or doesn't that count?

I don’t get your point. What has that got to do with anything? Your argument is shite British managers would cut it at big clubs but no big club would ever go anywhere near them. One did. Realised they made a huge mistake and quickly rectified it.

Benitez has won plenty to back my argument up and I respect that in a manager. In fact he’s won more than your British managers combined. He’s shite though and inherited everything and had loads of money and it’s not fair

No, your argument was that all "British managers" as exemplified by the "best" in Moyes would fail at a big club, because one of them didn't cut the mustard after six months.

Goose, gander, Benitez, Moyes.

Is it shite.

The facts speak for themselves. Your crystal ball prediction that one of them will never come good as no big club woul go anywhere near any of those managers for good reason.

Jesus. Even Everton have taken Allardyce on a short term deal until someone better comes along

Some good points from both Charco and Jish ( no need to fall out though lads ). I'm guessing these two are younger than me, given the stats at their disposal, their youth spent playing FIFA or Championship Manager, the rest of their time was wasted.

Just a couple of points I would like to add. Football management at the very top has changed. With the players now being nothing short of film stars earning mega bucks, the manager generally has to be a film star as well, charismatic, someone the players think of as an equal, and have a good CV in order to win their respect. Hence you get Benitez, Guardiola, Klopp, Conte etc, former international players who have won honours as managers, usually starting at the top and staying there. No way are managers as dour as Moyes , Pulis. Pardew are , going to get the respect of Paul Pogba Aguero and co. Nevertheless even the top managers only have a shelf life of 3 years or so now, the pressure to keep winning everything in sight eventually becoming too much, see Mourinho at Chelsea, Mancini at Man City and now probably Conte at Chelsea.

Someone mentioned Dyche and Howe. They are at the peak of their powers, just as Allardyce , Pulis and Hughes were a few years ago at Bolton and Stoke. They will hit a rough patch and could be sacked 12 mths from now, such is the unforgiving nature of Prem Lge football. Similarly they could take a big job on like Moyes did at Man U and fail spectacularly.

I think Howe is slightly different I think he's a talented coach who deserves a shot at a bigger job, I think Arsenal is a good fit but I reckon he'd be third or fourth choice at best after they had exhausted 'bigger names'. He has taken Bournemouth from League Two to a settled Premier League club playing an attractive brand of football.

I agree with Jish about a Guardiola managing West Brom. Of course he'd do better than the likes of Pardew. He gets big jobs because he's a fantastic coach and leader. He's the best, West Brom deserve relegating for a terrible lazy appointment in Pardew in the first place. Tony Pulis to Alan Pardew, how depressing for West Brom fans.

My biggest problem with the likes of Allardyce, Pardew, Hughes, Moyes et all is for me they don't even have a set style of play, how would you define an Alan Pardew or Mark Hughes team (apart from getting beat a lot)? They make absolute fortunes from failure, where is the motivation apart from money? I think another problem is that a lot of clubs have now adapted a more continental approach to hiring and firing coaches very regularly but most of the names mentioned are from the era of managers, they are overlapping without adapting. You just know when Everton bin Fat Head Allardyce in the summer with another substantial lumper in his sky rocket it won't be long before another terrified club comes calling to massage his enormous and totally misplaced ego. Top level Premier League clubs need to move on from these chancers.

The ironing of all of this is that a few months ago stoke got rid of Hughes because he was going to get them relegated. Now Southampton have brought Hughes in to stop them getting relegated.

Delicious.

I just wish more clubs would be like a Barnet and think outside the box as they have this morning by appointing a bloke called Martin Allen.

Jesus, is that like his 10th spell there?

Only his 5th, surely the bloke going the other way Graham Westley won’t get another job? His record must be shocking in recent years I think he only got the Barnet job in January, if only Newport had kept him on last season!

I'm 40 years old. I've been watching football since I was 5 years old. Never played FIFA or Championship Manager. I have seen many great technical managers and many great man managers over the years. I am from the old fashioned school of thought that a successful manager wins things.

Moyes has been a manager since 1998. In twenty years of management he has won the following:

Preston North End
Football League Second Division: 1999–2000

Manchester United
FA Community Shield: 2013 (against a relegated Wigan side)

Tony Pulis has been a manager for even longer. 26 years. He started in 1992 and has won the following honours:

Gillingham
Football League Third Division runner-up: 1995–96
Football League Second Division play-off final runner-up: 1999

Stoke City
Football League Championship runner-up: 2007–08


Alan Pardew has been a manager since 1999 (19 years) and has the following honours:
Reading
Football League Second Division runner-up: 2002

West Ham United
FA Cup runner-up: 2006
Football League Championship play-off winner: 2005

Southampton
Football League Trophy winner: 2010

Crystal Palace
FA Cup runner-up: 2016


Sam Allardyce has been a manager since 1991 (26 years) and has the following managerial nuggets:

Limerick
League of Ireland First Division (Tier 2): 1991–92

Notts County
Football League Third Division: 1997–98

Bolton Wanderers
Football League First Division play-offs: 2001

West Ham United
Football League Championship play-offs: 2012

Roy Hodgson has been a manager since 1982 (36 years). He has been a manager at Inter Milan and Liverpool so the argument that he has not been given a chance is flimsy at best. He has won the following:

Örebro SK
Division 2 North: 1984

Malmö FF
Allsvenskan: 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989
Svenska Cupen: 1985–86, 1988–89

Neuchâtel Xamax
Swiss Super Cup: 1990

Inter Milan
UEFA Cup runner-up: 1997

Copenhagen
Danish Superliga: 2000–01
Danish Super Cup: 2001

Fulham
UEFA Europa League runner-up: 2010

Mark Hughes has been a manager since 1999 (19 years). He has no honours to speak of. Maybe that will change this year however he is in danger of taking Southampton down. I can’t really blame him for this though.

So unless you count winning the league in Sweden or Denmark, the above managers in 146 years of combined management have won 0 trophies of note. None whatsoever. In 146 years.

I don't need to say anything else

I'm not great fan of the English manager brigade but in answer to the lengthy post above...once they're in the premier league what are they supposed to win? They have no chance of winning the premier league so they're left with FA Cup and League Cup which most of the time they don't take seriously because the money to stay in the premier league far outweighs cup success.

To win either cup they have to beat the big boys who even with second string sides have players worth many millions more than their own. Their job is to keep their team in the league and so those who do that are on the whole successful. You can't measure success for these guys in cups. If Burnley finish 7th or higher that's more impressive than a cup win for me but it won't go on any honours board.

It all depends on how you categorise success, is it a trophy? is it survival? is it a cup run?

Its all relative to the club your at.

Moyes kept everton up, then worked well on not a lot of money, finished 4th against clubs spending a tonne more.

Big sam got Bolton into the prem, then kept them up, finished 7th, which for Bolton is amazing, and had a bit of European football with players the club had never seen the likes of before.

Pulis got stoke up, got them established, he went to palace n kept them up, got manager of the year, went to WBA kept them up etc

I've been critical of these British manager club in the past, but to judge just on trophies is not really looking at the full facts.

The question I ask my Nag supporting friends and colleagues here in Newcastle is why is Rafa struggling so much this season on the same budget as Bornmuff, Brighton and Burnley, who seem to be coping much better?

Perhaps its just a one off or perhaps they all start with the letter 'B', who knows?

You could argue all of those already had stronger squads than Newcastle in the summer, have strengthened much better too in pre season and january.

Rafas squad is mainly championship standard, i think hes doing a great job.

Whilst agreeing with horden that times are different nowadays, I would take issue with the idea that a manager's status is based solely on trophies won. Any manager who could keep a north east club in the Premier League for say five years would be a top man imho.

Bob Paisley once started his pre match team talk but very quickly aborted it with the words 'you are a better team than them, just go out and beat them'. He inherited a fine team and over a nine year period became the most 'successful' English manager in terms of silverware. Now it is my assertion that had Bob moved to say a north east club, he would have been a very ordinary manager. He was at the right club at the right time and he knew it.

I wouldn’t say they are coping ‘much better’ either, Brighton and Bournemouth are doing about the same, Burnley obviously are doing a bit better. I think Benetez is doing a decent job at Newcastle as well.

To be fair to Bob Paisley he took over a good team but not quite as good as Revie's Leeds or Clough's Derby. He turned them into a trophy machine and was an absolute master of replacing players at the right time. If he'd moved clubs who knows what would have happened? Doesn't change the fact that his record was remarkable and he has to be ranked among the best managers of the modern era.

Interesting post this, but one which I think hasn't really got an answer , all ifs and buts. To answer Born Toulouse on the post above, yes Bob Paisley was among the best if not the best, but he inherited a club that was like a well oiled machine, certainly better than Cloughs Derby , on and off the field.

To answer Dstanley. I thought I did make a point of highlighting the fact that the managers who are getting pelters, in the main had done well, as since explained by others, getting teams up, keeping them up and leaving some sort of platform for the next manager to do the same. You are right about someone keeping a NE team up for 5 years. I cant see it happening these days, to think not so long ago Newcastle fans were moaning about Bobby Robson getting them to 5th. Sunderland fans banging on about Bruce, who consistently had them in mid table. Sunderland sacked a bloke called Ian McColl in the late 60s for the same reason, consistently finishing mid table with a boring side.

I think the reason Newcastle struggle is because they don't want an identity of a route one, physical team, with players playing above themselves , that Burnley , Bournemouth , Stoke ( in the past) have. Newcastle want to attract players of a higher calibre ( of course they fail miserably ) and win with a certain panache/style. Because of their perceived greatness they usually end up lower than the likes of Burnley etc but they won't regardless they wont resort to signing the likes of Glenn Murray , Chris Wood etc. They will hold out in the hope that by signing B rate foreign players that one day something will click. For all Burnley and Bournemouth have exceeded expectations, like Bolton, Blackburn, Stoke before them, it will come to an end. Newcastle will be there or thereabouts forever. Can Dyche , Hughton and Howe take their clubs any further? I doubt it, do they get out now before the inevitable slide? Do they follow in the footsteps of Moyes and Rodgers and take a job beyond them? or do they become the new Pardews. Pulis, Alladryces of this world , living off their reputation for the next 10 years , taking jobs at clubs in the 12-15 club mini league?.

So why can't a great coach like Rafa improve some of the players into lower/middle ability Premiership players?

He's getting lower/middle Premiership results from an Upper-Championship standard squad. Not sure what more he can do.

Another member of the British Managers club.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48989831

Steve Agnew his Assistant left as well, he has done rounds with a few clubs including Pools as Assistant to Scott.

its not as if the british managers club is actually poor its the small size of the club thats a problem. not as big a problem though as if a british manager gets the sack and the club brings in another foreign manager, or coach as they like to be called. he,s heralded as the greatest new thinker in the game and was at barcelona,s acadamy at one time. next thing he takes the club down. might have been just as good to try a lad who,s had a bit of success at a lower lever just to give him a chance. well as long as he aint paul lambert anyway.

You have a point. In recent years loads of foreign coaches have been brought in to manage Premier League-Championship yo-yo clubs, achieved naff all and disappeared back where they came from in a season or less. For every Pochettino and Nuno Espirito Santo there's been a couple of dozen duds. Which is no argument for keeping the likes of Lambert and McClaren in employment!

If Lampard and Gerrard manage to achieve some real success it will no doubt lead to more chances being given to young British coaches - especially if they're celebrity ex-players.

Foreign Managers come and go but the likes of Guardiloa, Klopp, Mourinho and to a lesser extent Pochettino have huge budgets too work with, English Manager don’t get the same opportunity, why ?

Latest is Newcastle are being linked with the former Lyon manager, wonder if Bruce will beg for his job back at Sheff Wed if Newcastle opt for someone else.
Mike Ashley really does have no morals if this is true!

both those will need to get success and quickly. they will not get the time like foreign managers would. funny though how the so called big name ex players have never really had much success in management. there is always someone who,ll break that rule but on the whole its correct.

Maybe not in this country, but many other countries seem to manage with top ex-players.

Zidane in Real Madrid
Simeone in Atletico Madrid

for example