Whatever the rights and wrongs of the fund me pages and the offers from other clubs to the Trust, it is truly humbling to see the likes of the Boro fans pulling together to support Pools and the stream of offers of support from other clubs trusts. It rekindles you faith in humanity. I for one am truly touched by it all.

just brought a tear to my eye reading the justgiving page comments

Really moved here too. I worry about where the money will go but for fans all over to offer their support in this way is definitely humbling.


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It does give me hope for the future that other trusts and fans are so supportive.

Whatever happens Mr I, I am sure people like you will be remembered fondly for your efforts.

It is very humbling, former players donating as well, £50 from Steve Jones!

But I can't help feeling it's not going to actually help. It might keep the wolfs from the door. But it's the lack of clarity of these debts and running costs that need to be resolved first.

Part of me is ashamed that strangers will donate money to help save my football club whilst I simply won't donate a penny, until I know what it's going to be used for and what the short and medium term future is.

I'm very happy to donate to the supports trust, but at this moment in time, to nobody else.

I do really appreciate the offers from help from the wider football community though.

Has anyone from the Trust contacted the person who set the just giving page up to request the money is given to the Trust should it not end up being used for what it is intended for?

Poor lass must be in for a tug of war. She's invited to a meeting being arranged by others as well.

Indeed. I think the meeting is a good idea and relevant representatives should attend, even if just as a gesture. The chair should also get some legal gaggie along to give an idiots guide to administration, liquidation, etc. so that people are fully aware of what’s at risk and where any money might end up.

Can’t knock the passion but needs some clear, impassionate thinking.

I hope there is some Financial Governance regarding these generous donations.

This isn't strictly true, only liquidation does this which will see us back in very lower league football under an entirely new legal structure.

Coming out of administration will require a voluntary arrangement with creditors which gives them more than they would get if the club is liquidated.

At the moment I guess Sage are still being too greedy, hence the "sticking point" on existing debt mentioned in the Mail relating to the two potential oversees investors.

Hopefully, one or more of the following will occur:

- Sage wake up quickly and do a pragmatic deal which still largely wipes out their debt
- Crowd funding, Trust Support, large gate on 20th, Council support etc buys another month or so for a deal to be concluded
- If Administration isn't avoidable, Sage they FINALLY wake up and enter a voluntary arrangement (along with other creditors - HMRC etc) to allow a deal to be done

If Sage do finally see sense (who I don not blame for this mess by the way), it would nice of them to do so without us having to incur the 10 point penalty and posible sanctions.

Just a thought!

I think we all do. I'd hate for our reputation to be damaged by association when so many people from so many clubs are being generous. I would love to give something but I don't think that's the right way to go about it. But as said above it is genuinely touching and I probably need to take a look at myself when I think I'd probably never do the same for other clubs.

Yes this could all get messy if the funds do not have a specific objective and governance arrangements in place. I for one will be holding onto my cash until the full facts of the debts and club running costs are known and this drama has reached a conclusion.

I was going to put this on another thread, but this one will do. Apologies for what is likely to be a long post.

First things first, quite a bit of this is outside my area of expertise, or stuff I haven't looked at in years, so there's likely to be errors and omissions.

There are two main issues here: the first concerns the legal position of the person who set up the justgiving page, the second concerns how the club uses the money.

I've had a look at the justgiving page, and the fan who set it up gave quite detailed reasons for the campaign; she is asking for donations to help pay the upcoming bills that are due. She did not, for instance, set up a general campaign for funds for the trust or any other reason. In that regard, there's little point in asking her to direct the money elsewhere, even if it is related to the purposes for which she set up the campaign. In short, if she diverts the funds to any other purpose to that which she started the campaign, she is at risk of committing a dishonesty offence, either theft or an offence under the Fraud Act. Those who approach her asking her to think about how she uses the campaign funds need to be careful; they could find themselves committing an inchoate (incomplete) offence, such as procuring a Fraud Act offence. I should be clear; much here is open to interpretation, particularly the slippery concept of dishonest that underlies these offences, but there's a risk here that she (and others) should be wary of.

As for what the club do with the money, this is really tricky. In most cases, this would be a simple gift, and it is very difficult to limit what the receiver of a gift can do with the property once it is transferred. Upon transfer, the gift belongs to the receiver of the gift, and it is their property to dispose of as they wish. In other words, HUFC could use all of the funds to simply service the debt (to sage, or others). However, there are ways to tie a legal obligation to a transfer of funds, so that any uses of that property have to be within the terms of the obligation, and any uses not within those constraints brings the possibility of a charge of theft. This is where my knowledge is limited, so my comments here should be treated with caution. It could be feasible to transfer the money to HUFC, for them to hold it on trust for particular purposes (such as paying the office and playing staff, laundry bills etc). In doing this, it would be prudent to ensure that the monies not be held in HUFC's general account, so that if the club did go into administration, the donations, being held on trust, would belong to the beneficiaries of the trust, and would be outside the reach of general creditors. However, given the present perilous state of the club, this may well be contrary to insolvency legislation, and given this is something I know absolutely nothing about, I can't comment on the legalities of this.

In short, it's a very messy question, and I suspect we have to accept that the campaign funds will go to the club, for them to use it as they wish. While there may be a moral obligation for them to do the right thing with it, I'd hesitate to say that they will have any legal obligations as to how to use the funds, and it is not straightforward to impose such obligations. If I were to approach the organiser of the fund to discuss how to use it, I would want to take legal advice before I did so.

Thank you for your post Mr Fat Man and the information it contains. I am no expert in this area but it would be prudent for people who have cash to give to the Pools cause to wait until this matter of administration/rescue etc to play itself out. Then when the position is clear direct their money wisely otherwise it could all end up in the hands of Sage etc. Basically throwing good money after bad.

Thanks for the info, does sound quite messy indeed.

Yes this could all get messy if the funds do not have a specific objective and governance arrangements in place. I for one will be holding onto my cash until the full facts of the debts and club running costs are known and this drama has reached a conclusion.[/quote]

I was going to put this on another thread, but this one will do. Apologies for what is likely to be a long post.

First things first, quite a bit of this is outside my area of expertise, or stuff I haven't looked at in years, so there's likely to be errors and omissions.

There are two main issues here: the first concerns the legal position of the person who set up the justgiving page, the second concerns how the club uses the money.

I've had a look at the justgiving page, and the fan who set it up gave quite detailed reasons for the campaign; she is asking for donations to help pay the upcoming bills that are due. She did not, for instance, set up a general campaign for funds for the trust or any other reason. In that regard, there's little point in asking her to direct the money elsewhere, even if it is related to the purposes for which she set up the campaign. In short, if she diverts the funds to any other purpose to that which she started the campaign, she is at risk of committing a dishonesty offence, either theft or an offence under the Fraud Act. Those who approach her asking her to think about how she uses the campaign funds need to be careful; they could find themselves committing an inchoate (incomplete) offence, such as procuring a Fraud Act offence. I should be clear; much here is open to interpretation, particularly the slippery concept of dishonest that underlies these offences, but there's a risk here that she (and others) should be wary of.

As for what the club do with the money, this is really tricky. In most cases, this would be a simple gift, and it is very difficult to limit what the receiver of a gift can do with the property once it is transferred. Upon transfer, the gift belongs to the receiver of the gift, and it is their property to dispose of as they wish. In other words, HUFC could use all of the funds to simply service the debt (to sage, or others). However, there are ways to tie a legal obligation to a transfer of funds, so that any uses of that property have to be within the terms of the obligation, and any uses not within those constraints brings the possibility of a charge of theft. This is where my knowledge is limited, so my comments here should be treated with caution. It could be feasible to transfer the money to HUFC, for them to hold it on trust for particular purposes (such as paying the office and playing staff, laundry bills etc). In doing this, it would be prudent to ensure that the monies not be held in HUFC's general account, so that if the club did go into administration, the donations, being held on trust, would belong to the beneficiaries of the trust, and would be outside the reach of general creditors. However, given the present perilous state of the club, this may well be contrary to insolvency legislation, and given this is something I know absolutely nothing about, I can't comment on the legalities of this.

In short, it's a very messy question, and I suspect we have to accept that the campaign funds will go to the club, for them to use it as they wish. While there may be a moral obligation for them to do the right thing with it, I'd hesitate to say that they will have any legal obligations as to how to use the funds, and it is not straightforward to impose such obligations. If I were to approach the organiser of the fund to discuss how to use it, I would want to take legal advice before I did so.[/quote]
A lot of good points made by TFM, this Just Giving pages looks like an honest (but misguided) attempt to "help the club". It appears the page owner decides on distribution of those funds. However, it also hugely distracts from your Trust's fund-raising attempts and will undoubtedly dilute the message that without an investor the Trust is the only vehicle to preserve the football club

This quote from Quaker Pete seems to hit the nail on the head.

"A lot of good points made by TFM, this Just Giving pages looks like an honest (but misguided) attempt to "help the club". It appears the page owner decides on distribution of those funds. However, it also hugely distracts from your Trust's fund-raising attempts and will undoubtedly dilute the message that without an investor the Trust is the only vehicle to preserve the football club".

The £200K would keep the Club going for another month. Then we need to start again raising for the next month and so on .... unless an investor comes forward.

Exactly ! As someone said earlier , its just like giving a homeless person a tenner and a cup of tea. It like a lot of things these days, people managing a situation rather than finding a solution to the situation. Its just keeping a dying corpse alive on a life support machine. Its delaying the inevitable.

Coatham coaches in now offering free travel to Boro fans to Vic on the 20th. Incredible stuff. I almost feel guilty about slagging the Boro off for the last 30 years now, almost.

Hearing Northern Rail. are putting an extra carriage on the Middlesbrough to Newcastle trains on the 20th as well. Okay I just made that one up.

I don’t think they’d ever do that even if the World Cup final was being held in Seaham.

Had 4 cars on all peak trains this week. Can't complain at that.

Noticed that yesterday, typical in a week when rail staff were on strike 2 days

Probably because the earlier train was cancelled due to strike!

Its on Talksport now.
The pundits reckon going community owned is the only way forward.
I totally agree.

It is the only logical way forward in the absence of a rich benefactor.

If HMRC are in line to be paid on 25th inst wouldn't it be prudent to pay them something? They are not shy and retiring when it comes to seeking winding up orders.

PS I am just as sick as the rest of you at the mess we are in !

Got to say some of the support from other fans is amazing. The amount of Boro fans going to be turning up. Two coaches of Rangers fan. All the well wishes just gives you hope that humanity is alive and kicking.

The best way forward is combination of both.

Yes.

However tempting it would be to pay HMRC before any other creditors if we do go into administration or get liquidated it would be classed as a pretence payment and unfortunately for the revenue they aren’t classed as preferential creditors any more.

And yes this would discourage them from issuing a winding up petition but if any of our charge holders get itch feet then they could appoint an administrator before the directors do.

Well that has sobered me up.

What an incredible effort it has been so far. The more that JustGiving page raises, the more guilty I feel for not donating. I just still feel I should wait until the Trust say it’s ok to donate or starts its own fundraising efforts (hopefully not needed) rather than more money falling into (at best) the incompetent hands of the people running the club. I can totally understand why people are doing what they’re doing and it’s an incredible effort from all concerned but I can’t get past the nagging voice in my head which says don’t give Pam/Sage any money until they tell us what this £200k is for and where all the money has gone.


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Before anybody gets the wrong end of the stick and takes it the wrong way, by incompetent you mean the people running the club and not the people behind the just giving page don’t you.

Oh god yes, the people running the club - absolutely not the people running the just giving page. Thanks!! Edited to be 100% clear I meant the people running the club.


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I just can’t see this as being anything other than pissing in the wind.

The money will evaporate into another black hole; the debts will return again next month and the merry go round will continue until the inevitable happens anyway.

No body is going to touch this club with a barge pole. Not if they’re actually genuine and have any business acumen.

Whilst this is admirable, it’s just throwing honest money into the wind.

Sad times.

I think that’s a great stance jan. I’ve bought a ticket for next Saturday. So I guess without putting into the just giving page I’m contributing to the club.

I think the beginning of next week will be interesting after Jeff n the trust have met with investors.

I wanna see Jeff walking into pools with a suitcase


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Had a wonderful email from Northampton, Wrexham, Plymouth, Dunfermline, Orient Trust offering support, touching stuff.

As the club's accounts are apparently worse than had been expected, I think we have to be realistic & see that administration may be the only way out of this sorry mess, as it's probably the only way to get rid of the Sage debt.

As Stocksfield Poolie suggested on another thread, Sage have no more cards to play & it's time for them to bite the bullet & write off the debt through administration. Why would a new owner take on that millstone? Easier to just buy the club from the Administrator

New owners could then start with a clean slate & a viable business plan. If there is a 10 point deduction, so be it, but a viable plan would ensure the players' wages are paid & it's then up to them to get the points to keep us in this league.

If the new owner later benevolently decided to pay some money to local creditors who lost out in the Administration, some goodwill might be retained

I don't know what mechanism is proposed for the just giving page monies going to pay off the club's debts. Is it an option for them to be given copies of outstanding non Sage debts and pay them directly without the money ever going through the club ie the only debt not being paid will be the one to Sage? So pay the laundry service, the coach company HMRC and contribute to the staff and players. Don't pay the interest to Sage and the Directors wages. If the club has never had the monies through their books there can be no accusation that creditors have been paid out of sequence and Rachel can demonstrate to the Just Giving donors that she has done what she said she would do.

What happens if the sh1t hits the fan and we get relegated. will we still get the parachute payment from the FL ?

Fairly sure that has been and gone as it's a one season thing. Where it's gone exactly not many know.

Same place all the transfer fees went


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Cheers. I just thought parachute payments were for two seasons. with the second seasons payment being less. I must of heard wrong then. Thanks for reply.

I may be wrong but I think what you're describing might be the Premiership parachute payments. Would be nice to see some form of assistance from the Premier League for struggling smaller clubs but then that would just be abused by the types Pools have suffered from.

I think we received 480000 this year alone. Next season we get around 200000.

Edited for accuracy


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I stand corrected, didn't realise we did.

I think the rules changed recently, so now parachute payments are over two years and the first payment has been doubled. As long as we are the same team (takeover or leaving admin with a CVA) we should get the second installment.

Yes you get it for two years. Obviously the 480000 went into signing top quality players and paying bills.