Germany beat us 4-0 in the 2009 final.

Just been looking at teams and realised Scott Loach was in goal for England, apparently because Joe Hart was injured.

Says something about the state of English football when 4 of England team still play in Premier, whereas 6 of German team went on to win the World Cup.

Germany U21: Neuer, Beck, Howedes, Boateng, Boenisch, Hummels (Aogo 83), Johnson (Schwaab 68), Castro, Khedira, Ozil (Schmelzer 89), Wagner.
Subs Not Used: Fromlowitz, Ebert, Marin, Grote, Adlung, Ben-Hatira, Ede, Sippel.

Goals: Castro 23, Ozil 48, Wagner 79, 84.


England U21: Loach, Cranie (Gardner 80), Richards, Onuoha (Mancienne 46), Gibbs, Cattermole, Muamba (Rodwell 77), Noble, Milner, Walcott, Johnson.
Subs Not Used: Lewis, Taylor, Stearman, Tomkins, Driver, Rose.

I wonder if we can win this one , as most of the current German U21 team are playing for the first team in Russia in the Confederations Cup.

I have never known why people think like this Mr Horden.

I don't think it says anything about English football and it never has.

Every single player regardless of training and commitment will get to their limit....or rather, those that put 100% commitment into becoming the best they can will. There are a million and one reasons why players plateau and / or don't fulfill their supposed potential.

The vast majority are not capable of being as good as Messi if they played non-stop form birth to death. Some of it is natural talent that can't be coached.

Why do English people think that England should be higher up the rankings/pushing for trophies more than we are? We are where we are because those countries above us have better players/a better team/whatever. And I absolutely do not subscribe to the belief that it's because we, as a nation, don't know how to develop players / get the best out of them etc etc. I think it's complete horseshit.

I think it takes a fairly large slice of having exactly the right players at exactly the right time with exactly the right manager.

Of course we should constantly strive to improve, but fuck me, it really isn't because English coaching/coaches is/are fucking rubbish. We are so quick to blame this and blame them, it's just sad.

Not a dig at you Mr Horden, your post just triggered it

No problem Shilts. I don't want to argue about this or even debate it really, as International football is not really my thing, but it does make me wonder why 2 countries more or less the same are so different in terms of success on a football field. I have my own idea of why it is, but I wouldn't share it on here, as it would probably cause a riot , and I'm really trying my hardest to keep out of trouble

The main problem is the fact that the league the young English players play in is not an English league. It's an international league which happens to be based on these shores. Because the clubs have mainly foreign owners, foreign managers, large foreign fan bases etc their priorities are absolutely not developing young English players.

So if this IS the case, why do Germany, Argentina, Brazil and Italy, always have decent teams that invariably get close to winning most tournaments?

Is it always just down to having a decent crop of players at any one time?

Bloody lucky countries if it is.

I stopped reading at Cattermole.

Surely the reason is that we select players as technically limited as him?

The reason England's international team is no good is because the nations you mention have the resources and big populations the same as us but a very different mentality when it comes to the type of players taken on and the style of football people want to watch (both points are linked).

Generally English clubs and English scouts favourite wholehearted committed physical players over technical ones. Maybe this is changing but by the time you are a pro it's too late to be coached to be a better player (which is about good decision making in a game situation) even if a good coach can set up a team well with clear instructions etc

This in a nutshell.

It still irks me that not 5 years ago I was approached by a ewcastle scout, about one of our players.....under 14 at the time.

He was asking about him because he was foot taller than everyone els. Ability wise he was nowhere.....but hey...this is England.

And when I refused to play him as the striker insated of centre back the scout got very pissed off.

He then told me none of the other players had the physical attributes to make it. I agreed and told him that Barcelona were wasting money on that little messi fella.

It wasnt the only time something like this occured. Or only to our team. Most coaches at local junior level in this country will have very similar tales of woe.

Totally agree, was exactly the same when I was playing junior footy in 80's. Recently had a friends son who ended up on the Sunderland Academy, they were checking the height of the parents to see if the kid would have the potential physics attributes to make it.

Like you say better tell BCN and Bayern Munich etc. that's Spanish all conquering team had 8 or 9 players 5'9" or under but they could all play. Arjen Robben, Phillip Lahm etc etc etc players who probably wouldn't have made it in England. I remember Peter Beardsley almost got binned off from football as a junior for being too small.

Fact is is England we value physicality and not technical ability. Drives me insane, I've got teenage daughters who play hockey and it's exactly the same there. England hockey have us a talk and said categorically that they are picking the athletic players and that they can teach them how to play (read game, passing etc etc). I said that you can't teach people things that they don't have a natural gift to do, surely it's easier to pick the ones with vision, awareness etc and get them fit?

I'm with Mr horden to be honest in that I could've give a monkeys about the national team, I'll watch them because I live here and it's on but I wouldn't make a special trip to see them live.

My lad is a quality player and I'm not being biased, if he was crap I'd say so (he's not the best cricketer for example, see? ) but he is a bit on the short side and hasn't been picked up yet despite playing for the East Riding....whether he's good enough I really don't know but he has something....anyway, I would agree with scouts largely looking for the big lads....but not entirely.

He has played with a couple of lads who are either the same height as him or even shorter and they're both on Hull City's books...one of them is fucking amazing. Just naturally brilliant. Effortless. Ball on a string and all that shit.

So they aren't all after just height....in fact now I think about it, there are a few lads who are all similar size/physique to my lad and they've all been on the books of local clubs, Scunthorpe being one of them....so no, you're all talking bollocks

I was scouted by a good few clubs (inc Pools) when I was younger, and had the same response. I had the natural talent, ability,potential etc, ......but was too small, so managers wouldn't even take a glimpse, so no point sending me for a trial!

Still have a chip on my shoulder over that. Would rather have gone for trials and been told I wasn't good enough, as opposed to being too small!

Always back to scran.

Probably cultural and mental.

I don't see Brazil and Argentina as being countries with limitless pots of cash to throw at football so it's not money and therefore can't be infrastructure or in my opinion, coaching....necessarily....although it plays a part obviously.

Those countires clearly have a style matched not only to the players at their disposal but also their mentality.

The English tend to look at other countries to see how they succeed and try to copy it which in my opinion will rarely, if ever, work.

Like any squad of players, you match the style to the players not try to force players to do the unnatural. Work at that (Iceland) and you stand a much better chance of being successful.

We used to say it was the way we coached our players. But for the past 20 years we have been trying to emulate our foreign rivals with coaching geared up to keeping the ball and playing football in the supposed correct way, yet we still fail to shine at major tournaments. I see our teams keep the ball and try to pass pass pass, but quite often its passing for passing sake, it doesn't seem to have the same intensity or purpose , as when the likes of Germany, Spain, Portugal pass it.

I agree with Shilts , we should play more to our strengths , there is too much emphasis on copying the foreigners and trying to beat them at tikka takka , we should mix it up. I also think a lot of those foreign kids probably still play in the streets, whereas our kids are running around training cones at 5 year old and playing organised sterile not much fun football. I also think the fact a lot of Spanish / German etc play their football across the world, whereas our Rooneys and Gerrards never played anywhere but England, think playing abroad makes you a more rounded person and better footballer.

I know I might be living in the past a bit, but the English style, if we have one, is a direct approach not a slow build up passing style in my opinion and it is a variation of this that I think we should adopt. An aggressive, attack minded approach with a strong defensive shape for when possession is lost.

The best thing to do, if you have the legs to do it, is to let passing teams have the ball in their half then press the ball carrier in your own half and force errors then quick break with, if necessary, longer balls to the big man up top or down the flanks for the quick fuckers.

I don't buy into this modern game bollocks. Barring a few rule changes about contact, it is essentially still the same game it always has been.

Maybe just maybe and this is me being my most optimistic here the recent succes of the U17 U20 & U21 teams means we might have turned the corner.
You'd have thought that if scouts and youth coaches were continuing to favour physicality over technique the success the English junior teams are having would be impossible.

The point is young players never get a chance in the Premier League, clubs go out and spend millions on foreign players.
In a couple of seasons the majority of the England team will be from Championship teams the same as the other home countries.

1.1 half time they are playing ok, missed 2 sitters first 10 mins they have got to bury the chances when they come along

Just realised Colin Cooper is one of the England coaches!

England on the ropes here mind....

Bloody germans and penalties theyve @ucked us again

The Germans win on penalties.

I have just come home to this news and am shocked.

Damn ! Bloody Fritz ! what excuses can we have this time ?

Just like watching the senior team. England played ok until they went ahead, then sat far too deep and gave away the ball for fun. Germany were very good mind.
I feel like such a sad case watching the U21s. #statto