It's Been announced on sky news that the external insulated cladding that went up so easy is banned from been used in Europe and the US.

Looks like a few people are going to be fooked big time ! How did it get passed by so many of the authorities.

Like I said on the previous thread, anyone found responsible for the deaths for sake of saving a few quid should be thrown in a burning building with no escape. This story disgusts me much more than the recent terrorist attacks for some reason. They may not have intended for it to all end so badly but they didn't give one shit that it could have.

The fact that the residents drew attention to all the risks is even worse. The only way heads will roll for this is if we an enquiry (should be an inquest) is carried out by a government which isn't Tory.

Well who gave the nod to use this shite cladding,daft to blame May or boo the Queen on their visit's ,wtf would they know.

It really is a stain on successive Tory Governments. Schools, Prisons, Fire Service, Border Force, Police Force, Benefit Centres and Councils all run down to a point where they can barely function due to lack of funding. I know people from nearly every department I have mentioned and they are all stressed to the point of exhaustion....staff reductions year on year and more work per head with less funding.

An accident waiting to happen, and shocking in the extreme.

Sad and angry in equal measure.

Thought the Queen's visit had gone down well?

Can just imagine her with her arse crack out up a ladder fitting cladding.

The gadgie whose company fitted the cladding has a lovely house and was paid millions for the job. Bet he's sweating a bit now.

I like Corbyn's suggestion of those in need just occupying rich folks vacant homes in London!

Why blame the company who fitted the cladding.. wasn't it all given the go ahead to be used?

Why fit cladding instead of fire alarms or sprinklers?

They are all culpable.

The client. The architect. The builder. The sub-contract cladding firm and the manufacturers.

I read a detailed report about this cladding and it's scary.

Though it's not exactly the cladding to blame but the insulation behind it.

It's right that it's banned from mainland Europe and it's alarming it was used here.

Apparently the fire regulations are stricter for an office block than they are for a block of flats.

So if you work in a high rise office block have no fear. They are built properly.

It appears the law makers care less about residents in flats.

It is believed that a sprinkler system wouldn't have stopped this fire.

But you right.

But hey, they are only council tenants. One fire escape no sprinklers and a dodgy fire alarm should be good enough for them.

That's because he is ordinary person.

Therefore making him unsuitable to be PM.

You need to have gone to Eton and Oxford to warrant that.

Lets just watch and see all the professional arrogance of these people responsible unfold.
The report/ inquire why what will this tell you what you could not see, root cause/causes a fridge and the cladding.
How can you use a flammable material on any building is just down right negligence there has been so many lessons learnt over the years especially from piper alpha.
People are mentioning sprinkler systems etc have got to remember these are control measures what have been around for years but they will use this in the category of lessons learnt and if they do they really are taking the piss.
The people who have made the decisions to allow all them people to be at risk know who they are and haven't got the balls to take responsibility @ucking arseholes.

Top and bottom of all this is you don't know how good your insurance is till you need it ... take it from me I know this to be true..

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It was in all probability a design and build contract and this is how it usually goes.

- Architect picks some cladding he thinks looks nice.
- Main contractor (who has the contract with the client, in this case the local authority) finds alternative cladding that is vaguely similar but cheaper.
- Architect gets a cob on because he doesn't like the new cladding as much.
- Contractor says to client 'this cladding is just like the one the architect wants but it'll save you 40 grand
- Client says that sounds good. If the architect approves it, jobs a good un.
- Contractor, who employs the architect tells them to approve it or they get sacked.
- Architect checks it out and supplier sends him certification. Architect approves because he's asked the question about suitability and because he wants paying.

When it comes to blame, take your pick out of that lot.

In new build apartment blocks sprinklers cost about £1000/apartment. Only usually installed in builds over 30m tall. Should be in all when the cost is so little.

This is spot on, more or less.

Except, its actually worse.

If the history of this comes out, and hopefully it will, the scenario will have gone something like this:

Council, via its representatives, sends out building tender enquiry.

Quotes come back.

Rydon, who did the work, were the cheapest, but were £1m over the allocated budget.

So, the client gets them in, to discuss "Value enginnering solutions" to get them back to within budget.

They will have looked at everything, except their own OH&P.

One area they could have saved money was the cladding, as it was around 35% of the overall scheme.

They will have looked at the fire regs and said, you have specified you want a 2 hour fire rating, but the minimum standards say you only need upto 1hour.

By changing the insulation you could the legally required minimum standard and a £1m saving.

Council gets all of the certs, compare to th eregultions, and have to approve.

Bingo.

Oh, and Value engineering means to save costs. Nothing else.

Yup, live with this stuff daily in my job.

The buildings my company provide come up to a certain standard regarding Fire.

Doesn't stop numerous "other" companies hiring their buildings, of a FAR lesser standard and Fire Rating, cheaper than ours, to our Local Councils as Temporary Classrooms.......

Personally , I couldn't sign anything off or overlook anything that put people in danger, but there are so many people now who do this, people who are scared to challenge, and ask questions, for fear of being labelled a troublemaker. It has happened for years, but seems to be endemic in British culture these days. Until that changes, these things will continue to happen. I suppose that is why I am a Socialist, and a big Jeremy Corbyn supporter. I believe in unions, health and safety, free speech. Its no use people banging on about Grenfell if you believe in Capitalism and voted Tory. Capitalism the ideology the tories believe in, conflicts with the health and safety of people, that is why tories and Capitalists don't like unions, don't like union H&S reps , because they affect what is shown on the bottom line , that is profit and that is all what matters to these people.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2017/06/15/g ... icker-man/

So modern sprinkler systems aren't triggered by fridge fires? The whole point of sprinklers is to nip fires in the bud, and they are very, very accurate at doing that.

As usual there will be recommendations but nothing mandatory from the enquiry.
From Piper Alpha, Fires in London Underground,Rail crashes, Bradford Fire disaster and Hillsborough which were accidents waiting to happen is anything ever done, only when there is loss of life.
Recommendations don't cost money, making it mandatory does but the big players always get away with if from their friends in higher places.
They will not recommend retro fitting sprinklers in old high rise Council flats, the cost would prohibitive in their eyes, it won't happen and it although it will be down too cost some other reason will given.

No idea mate.

I also have no idea when or under what circumstances a sprinkler system would be activated. Also I dont know where the sprinkler sensors would be positioned, nor how many would be in each flat.

If the construction of these flats (the refurbishment of), was as bad inside as out, then what if the fridge was backing onto an external wall? So the fire hit the external wall before rising anywhere else?

It has already been shown that the insulation used, was highly flammable, so the external envelope would have gone up in no time.

No sprinkler system would touch where the fire took hold in this case. If it did indeed take hold in the external wall.

But I was only repeating what had been reported.

79 now dead or presumed dead.

And thats just the known numbers.

This could end up easily over 100.

Someone will be going to jail for this.

I just hope the tories dont create a scapegoat, for their own political need.

I wouldnt put it past them.

It was a rhetorical question. Sprinklers don't have sensors; they have a sensitive glass bulb that breaks and unstoppers the sprinkler directly when exposed to heat.
If you have a certain number of sprinkler heads per square metre they will douse any nascent fire. And they douse bloody quick
If I recall rightly there was a sprinkler about every five metres in our factory. That would mean 4 heads max in a medium sized flat, or more sensibly one in each room.
In other words the "sprinklers are useless" argument is pure BS.

Well you have partly answered your own question. That was in a factory, and very probably a purpose built one. I doubt very much the sprinkler system in any council run block of flats will have that coverage.

It wil cost multi millions to fit sprinklers into these buildings, and in some cases might not even be technically and logistically possible.

I dont thnk anyone said that sprinklers are useless.

All this expert hinted was that if the fire took hold within the cavity of the external wall, for a certain amount of time the sprinkler might not have activated.

The problem here could well have been that the internal wall, probably a British Gypsum board on the back of a metsec frame will have had an hours fire rating.

So wouldnt have burned immediately, whereas the insulation behind the Cladding was highly combustible.

The question about numbers is becoming surreal. Police spokesman says today the number of known dead is 79, which may rise but "not significantly."

Surely they know by now who was registered as living in the apartments and have been able to speak to all adults who got out of the building alive? Which can only leave people who were visiting or staying temporarily. But even those people should be flagged up by friends or relatives who know they have been missing since the fire?

I must say when it was revealed that the fire brigade only managed to reach the 12th floor before they were beaten back by smoke and flames, a death toll in the 100s looked on the cards.

With some bodies completely incinerated, it's beginning to look as if no-one will ever know the true figure.

only the loony left could turn a thread about a tragedy into a worship session for Saint Jeremy of Loonyland.

A while ago the firm I was working for were about to start construction of a 30 storey block of luxury apartments, in London.

I tried to get certain firms involved, as we could have made some serious money.

I was told to back off, unless the firms I was proposing had an even more steller eputation than those proposed.

I was told that the client and the architect were not interested in saving money, as the target clients wanted the best of everything.

It was obscenely over specified.

It cost £75million to build.

Three years later, we are looking at a scheme in Luton, consisting of three 20 storey towers, all for social housing.

The Budget is £33m. in total.

Its all the Local authority have.

Brings us back to Austerity. Things need to be built but they can only be built to a budget.

If things go as expected following the fire, a lot of these new buildings wont be built.

Builders wont want to be associated with them on such poor specs, and frankly councils wont get prices that fit in with their budgets.

But hey, the tory lovers out there wont care.

Its austerity dont you know, and its working.

Just as long as it doesnt affect the filthy rich, Hey Mr Imp?

Oh do give over. There are about three political party related posts in this discussion and yours is one of them.

"Loony Left"... Looks more like looney right from where I'm sitting swivel eyed goons..

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If one feels oneself getting so passionate about one wretched politician over another that one can turn anything into a chance to score points then there's a serious lack of perspective. The heroism that was shown on that awful night is rightfully being praised far and wide. Im sure the villainy will be revealed too.

Here's a one from the not too distant past Mr Imp, one of your lot. Of course he studied Eton, so no way can he be labelled a loony.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 85238.html

If I thought jeremy Corbyn was the loony left I wouldn't support him.

But the fact he is an honest caring human being loses him points with some people.

So it does bode the question who exactly is the loony?

I don't see honest and caring. I see weak naive and unpatriotic.

Thanks for the link. Looks like he was trying to take us away from a sueing culture like America. I approve. Detracts from true H&S issues.

Titan house on York road is like that now

Absolutely rank inside it


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I'd suggest you read the full interview. In it Cameron uses expressions like "health and safety nonsense" and "accidents are inevitable" and makes very clear that if the health and safety of human beings gets in the way of profit, then profit should come first every time.

I am OK here thanks. Where is the debate amongst a load of mutual back patters. What are views if they cannot be challenged? I class myself as Corby intollerant, not Tory anyway.

Despite disagreements I'm pleased that there are people in my home town who care. So much apathy up there these days. Cool down a bit though. Its fine to disagree.

The debate has nowt to do with party politics anyway. Bad stuff had happened on all watches. Humans are not perfect and there is the dark side of human nature to contend with too. That's why you're always going to need heroes like those in the emergency services. Its difficult to argue this with Labour supporters if they don't accept previous Labour governments as being real Labour though.

Aye. Ten times worse.

And still the tory bastards won't guarantee sprinklers.

Tell me again how anyone outside the financially safe elite could vote for them.

It's the nearest example to turkeys voting for Christmas I can compare.

And eighty people dying in a tower blocks isn't an h&s issue?

And what's the fuck does profiteering over lives have to do with being patriotic?

And what the hell does it have to do with party politics? So every tragedy that happens is the current governments fault? Well I think the red banner has stuff to answer for too. Plenty. I apologise for the loony left comment. I've been called a lot of names because I speak against Corbyn but no excuses just reasons. I myself have had the public sector 1% for years now. Corbyn was offering me a pay rise. However such has been my unease at what comes from his mouth that O would target take another 1%. This is a common point of view in the circles that I move in.

"I class myself as Corby intollerant"

I agree, they never get the bloody creases out of your trousers.

You moving in circles ! now that is believable

Mr Imp, I've known you a long time and you're an intelligent bloke. But some of your comments would suggest otherwise. I don't get this irrational hatred of Corbyn, has he bucked your lass or something?

PS you still owe me and Scott Hillyer a fiver from that bet about Trevor Quow scoring Northampton's equaliser, which gave the half time Bovril a bitter taste.

Well if it wasn't a political thread before it is now.

Undermines the arguments about the whether Corbyn is trustworthy when Mr Imp made off with Mr Nottingham's fiver and then went quiet when it was mentioned. I once lent Jeremy a fiver to put in a collection to fund terrorism and he paid it back the next week.

I have my own reasons to dislike him mate and they are all rational and nowt to do with buckage of our lass (or yours). Personally I think it's irrational to like any politician. There's something definitely wrong if you don't think you're voting for the least poor option.

I've never conceded defeat on that bet so you and Scott can go whistle. It was Steve Brown who scored. I remember bringing the video into school to prove it. I'll have MY fiver plus interest please.

No way, I've studied that footage from 'The Back Page' several times, and it was definitely Quow that netted. It's in all yhe re ord books too.

As for interest, whilst you seem happy with less than 1%, I'd prefer something linked to inflation. Reckon Scotty would too.

www.wikiwand.com/en/Trevor_Quow

Have it!!!! Zero goals that year

What the fook has this got to do with politics

They should have been brought down in the 70s along with bloody queen.