...watching the womans triathlon and the commentators keep refering to GB's Lucy Hall (who's leading) as Helen Jenkins' domistee'?....apparently someone in the race to aid a better fellow competitor. Now the first thing you ask is why doesn't she go on to try and win the race herself?
Then some would say yes it's the same in track racing where you have a pacesetter, but I'm sure you're not allowed a pacesetter in the Olympics are you?, is it in the Olympic spirit?,and surely it's unfair to the countrys who may only have one competitor in the race?

...still hope we win like.

The cyclists did it yesterday, with the little bloke on a motorbike.

He was shite, kept dropping out the lazy get!

Domestique. It makes perfect sense. Helen Jenkins presumably is stronger all-round than Lucy Hall, so Lucy Hall is tasked with pacing her through. Do you think Bradley Wiggins rode at the front of the peloton every day in the Tour de France? No, he rode 4 or 5 back because you save around 30% energy by doing that. The domestiques do all of the hard work and get none of the glory.

The little man on the bike during the keirin isn't a domestique, he is just there to pace it.

I have a slight hunch, dont tell me why but they were taking the piss.

Yeah, I just got that

I can understand why they do it, but if I was an athlete there isnt a hope in hell I would go out there with no intention of winning, whats the point.

Lol and he was obviously a hermaphrodite as well competing in the men's and women's races

Not much of a team performer then are you.
The domestique has no realistic chance of winning. As soon as that is understood, she does everything to help her team mate. If she was good enough to go on her own she'd have done so, and no doubt will one day.

I don't see things like that as a team sport, it's an individual event. For me as an athlete there should only be one goal, gold. Anything else shouldn't be good enough.

Agree entirely, the cycling is an embarrasment imo, Team SKY? its a individual event ffs, using other guys to try and let someone else win? wtf just go ride and try to win. A complete non event imo.

The Kazackstan guy who won wasnt in a 'team' was he?

I'll let the Tour de France organisers know you want them to stop allowing teams to compete.

I could be wrong but didn't Team Radioshack win the TEAM part of Le Tour?

The team award includes the times for all team members so that doesn't generally go to whoever is after the sprint or individual title. In both cases a team of riders looks after their most likely winner to give them the best chance of winning. For Cavendish you keep him safe and near enough to the front to go past everyone at the end of the stage but you're only bothered about sprint stages, for Wiggins you help him out on the hills to make sure that he doesn't lose time and work like a mini peleton on the endurance stages. Without the support of a very good team you can't win either of those titles. Cavendish is leaving Sky because they'll be aiming for Wiggins to win again and you aren't going to win the sprints and overall with the same team tactics. Going for the Team award is like aiming to be the fourth best team (even king of the mountains is a better title).

I used to enjoy the battle for the measles jersey back in the Virenque era. That really was a team effort. Shame the Festina lot were all doped like.
In this year's race there wasn't a single mountain stage worthy of note.

As for the triathlon, Lucy Hall was selected as a pacemaker because she is a very strong swimmer but not even average at cycling and running. Talking of going all out for gold when you are ten minutes off the pace is just plain silly. A more relevant argument would be to question whether a domestique is the proper way to go when other, better all-round triathletes have a good claim for a place in their own right.
But given the choice of the sport's bosses to go that way, Lucy Hall did everything expected of her and won't be displeased with that.

Is this two sports you know nothing about then?

Everyone just keeps repeating the role of a domestique in different scenarios. We know what one is but don't agree with it. All I am saying is that if I was an athlete and someone told me to aim to make sure someone else won and I finished nowhere I'd tell them to do one.

Can you train yourself to top international level surrounded by other members of your country's team in an Olympic ambience then come back and tell us that please?

Yup, if there is only a medal for the individual winner and you work as a team to let one guy win then its an embarrasment and shows no ambition whatsoever.

Different sports work differently. Cycling started as an individual sport but it has evolved into where the individual needs the support of a team. Other sports have stayed genuinely individual and some started as, and have remained, team sports. How is it in any way unambitious to play your role in a team mate's attempt to reach the pinnacle of your sport? Chris Froome knows that he'll get a turn and that when he does Wiggins and co will back him. Playing the supporting role is part of the process you go through to reach the top yourself- it's his long term ambition that motivated him to work for Wiggins.

Mr Tolosa, please, these are experts you're trying to argue a bit of sense into so please show some deference.

Aye, you're quite right. As they say pedal like fook and you'll be fine. That's why Team GB cycling is doing so well, team talks along the lines of, "Everyone for themselves, get your thighs pumping and last one back buys the beers."

Nothing to do with knowing a lot about the sport or not, i dont believe an individual event should be turned into a team event with the aim of letting 1 guy win.

Surely if you have 3 people entered into an event which has 3 prizes at stake then in an ideal world your optimum objective is a 1-2-3 finish? ..........If I'm the only qualifier from San Marino then I'm not afforded that (domestique) luxury?......unfair?

I've been involved in sport at a decent level and have trained with the best in my sport with the British team and I know that no matter what happened in that sport I would only ever set out to win. If someone told me I had to be the fall guy for another team member to progress I'd sack it off on the spot.

A blame the karate kid fillum for this. Poor Daniel son had to take the wrath when that bastard John creese made 1 of his cobra kai's forfeit the semi and take Danny laruso's leg out. Creese was all for this team and not individual craic. Problem was though creese didn't plan on miagi's magic hands and daniel son did the business in the final against Jonny PROVING the guy who lost the semi should have just had a go.

Sorry, I thought we only had to defer to people who'd played football to a decent level. Turns out we have to give in on all sports because you've trained with the British team in a mystery sport. Wouldn't have argued if I'd realised you held that trump card. Just out of interest: What did you play, to what level and when did you train with the British team and how often?

Only asking because one of my kids trained with Pools but it was just the once when they visited her primary school so I don't let her automatically win all football arguments...

Can't argue with Hollywood, if only England had Sylvester Stallone in goal for penalty shoot outs all would be well.

Well then you wouldnt have been picked in the first place.

I only mentioned it because I was told I had no idea unless I'd trained with top level athletes. Well in my sport (ex sport now), taekwondo, I have. I was British champion and was with the British team as either number 1 or 2 in my weight for 4 years. I used to train 3 or 4 times a week normally then once a month with the British team then twice a year do a camp down in loghborough uni for a weekend with all the nutritionists and sports pshycologists and the likes. I have represented gb in international events.

No doubt you will come out with yet another clever remark but I won't be responding again, I am just saying what I believe based upon the experience that has given me. I know it's far from the Olympic athletes but is hazard a guess it's closer than you've been.

It wasn't me who said that but, to be fair, that is a very good level indeed. Not far at all from the standard of the Olympic athletes and certainly well beyond anything I ever did (although I did get punched very hard by a future European Cruiserweight Champion once and remained on my feet).

Anyway, as far as this thread is concerned, yours was very much an individual sport whereas we're talking about those inbetween sports where the winner has to be backed by a team even though they are the only one named when it comes to collecting trophies. All the team members participate on that basis.

Sounds like you had the right mentality for your sport but, like I said earlier, different sports are different and I'm surprised you can't acknowledge that.

I can understand how in the tour de France they work as a team, at the end of the day they are called team sky which is a bit of a giveaway. Wiggins wouldn't have won without them. They spend countless hours together year in year out and can Definately be classed as a team. The event itself lasts for a few weeks.

What I cant understand is how the womens triathlon at the olympics is a team sport. This event is the pinnacle of there sport and I can't get my head round what Lucy hall would get out of her teammate winning gold, satisfaction??

Put yourself in lucy's shoes. Your sacrifice the lead in the olympics for a teammate who didn't medal but could of, so is this satisfaction or regret. If she had a go from the front on the bike, an accident behind or a big breakaway and she could have had a chance of the medal which every competitor in that race would dream about. Yes on paper she wasn't the best runner but who knows what the adrenaline would have done to her run if out in front.

Now fast forward 30 years and look back at the games. You more than likely havnt seen this teammate in over 20 years. Would you look back proud you helped her or look back with regret that you didn't have a go??


Surely mr Toulouse you can acknowledge that some people would rather have a go. Even if the teammate had won, shed have the medal, what would you have, the DVD from the race??

Some sports are what you are saying but IMO the mens and womens triathlon at the Olympic games do not fall into that category

The triathlon is certainly way more debatable than cycling and if I was one of the triathletes who didn't get a crack at the Olympics because two places went to helpers I'd be fuming. If I was one of the helpers I'd be happy to have got in there to help. Like Montpoolier said earlier, the real question is whether the selectors had the right priority in the first place. They went for gold above anything else.

Well the problems lie there then, IMO the fastest 3 girls should be selected.

Lucy hall could well be a top 3 for all we know but because she wasnt number 1 she was a fallguy for her teammate and I just think that's wrong.

I can see your point although I can also see why they wanted to give their only realistic medal hope the best possible chance. It isn't a clear shout for the selectors whereas in cycling it is- you either compete as a team or you don't compete. That's why I was arguing with Mr Stevo, it seems clear to me that the way you approach different sports has to be different- you can't have a blanket rule that applies to them all. If you hope to win in some sports then some team members sacrificing their own achievements for the greater ambition is essential and if they refused to do that they wouldn't get picked. I'm not sure if that is really the case in triathlon but the athletes who played the supporting roles did so willingly. Nobody needs to feel sorry for them, they were probably delighted when their stronger event got them a chance to be part of team GB when their weaker ones meant they weren't in the top three for the triathlon.

Was the Kazackstan winner of the road race in a team?

Rochdale.

Yes. The idea that some sort of Borat character just went for it is complete bollocks. He is the top rider in the Astana Team which has been funded by the Kazakhstan state and is one of the world's top cycling teams. To give you an idea of the cash they've got former Tour winners and drug fiends Armstrong and Contador were both recruited to Astana as soon as the team was started but, since then, they've tried to ensure that it works to bring Kazakhstani cyclists through so their Olympic road race team was very experienced- essentially the nationally qualified members of the Astana Team. Vinokourov's decision to break from the peloton was a tactical gamble that paid off. It wasn't him playing a hunch though, the team discuss the race through their headsets and the management will have told him to go.

I have no idea why people can't fathom that cycling is a team sports? Is it individual because they all ride their own bikes? Well I have my own football boots, does that make me an individual? Apart from the early years of the Tour de France, road cycling has always been a team based sport which relies as much on tactics as it does the individual. Part of the reason why Tom Simpson went super humanly hard was because his GB national team in 1967 were not good enough to help him. He ended up dying, partly because of the drugs he was taking to counter that. If it was about who could go fastest then Cavendish would win most of the time and were would the fun in that be?

I used to scoff at cycling. It's just riding a bike right?? We all have a bike from 3 years old.

Then, when you see the Tour De France, since they cleaned up the drugs issue and you watch these races at the Velodromes, first at the Commonwealth, and now at the Olympic games, I'm fascinated.

Admittedly I still struggle to understand the various and very complicated rules but there's no denying the athleticism of these people.

Why do they go so slow for a couple of laps though??

If only the individual gets a medal then its not meant to be a team sport.

Should do away with it all and just do time trials on there own to find out who the fastest is. Not wuss out and get your mates to take turns cycling fast at the front while you have a breather.

Fair enough Mr Tree, you've kept your wind up going for a good while but using "wuss out" about gadgies who cycled 3,500 km in three weeks and then did the Olympics shows that you 're just taking the piss. It isn't easy cycling either, one of the stages was at Bagnères De Luchon and when I went up there in my van the descent fooked my front brakes. Excellent for snowballs up there though.

If they start awarding team golds for whichever team won when that Kazackstan guy won etc then fair enough, no problem. But while it just a medal for the winner then imo teams shouldnt exist.

The Brownlee brothers in the mens triathlon had a domestique & won gold & bronze, so I think job done in this case & he (Stuart Hayes) is on TV now & he considers himself an important part of the team which helped the other 2 to win their medals.

He aint gonna say any different though is he.

FFS tree it's good job they didn't allow Stuart Hayes to spoil the party and win by a mile.

Got a bit sidetracked by Mr Stevo's point that domestiques should never be used in any sport at all, ever. I now realise that for the purpose of this thread he was actually working as Mr Trees domestique the cheeky blighters!

Seriously though, I had no idea before these games that they were using the system in triathlon, I'd just assumed that it had spilled over from professional cycling into the Olympic road races because the cyclists were used to it and it worked.

On reflection it isn't any different from the way you pick a footy team really. If you just picked your 'best' 11 things would go badly wrong. If you've got a big slow centre half it can be OK if they're paired with a quick one and your choice of full back is influenced by the type of wide midfielder you've got in front of them. If Cooper wants Steve Howard up front whenever possible the rest of the forwards will be picked according to who complements him best. Being able to feed off him or supply him with crosses might be much more important than who the second best striker is. If that ended up meaning that Poole played every match and we got promoted I can't say I'd spend that much time wondering if Luke James thought it was fair.

I'm surprised Prem sh@t players don't have a domistee in front of them to do the hard running so they can live in a bubble on the pitch as well