sorry snowy but in full rant mode before realising you had replied to the chipmasters comments

As for the baths, it paid well, I was my own boss and wasn't working like a human battery hen.

"By the way Chip, 'this government' did not descend from a shaft of celestial sunlight and bring knowledge as its gift. I wonder just how we did cope before 'this government'.... came down from heaven to save us.
My enduring experience of the education system which finally ended last year, is that it does a good PR job now.
Do you vote Labour?"

Perhaps Chip, like myself misunderstood the above quote from Snowy, that seemed to imply, perhaps wrongly, that Mr Snowy has spent a lifetime in the realm of education until his recent retirement.

Unlike Chip, I didn't attend a poor Comprehensive, and I am not 'generalising from self' when I say that the majority, rather than the minority, have opportunities in education today that most of my generation did not have.

No they're not, nurses are like the rest of the population 1/3 an' a 1/3 an' a 1/3, the workers, the watchers and the wankers.......inescapable rule of life.

Patients fit the same pattern and the good ones get a good response and the rest get what they deserve.

callers at work fall in a similar pattern of '1/3 an' a 1/3 an' a 1/3'. Polite ones get all the help they deserve and their problems fully resolved, stupid ones get everything explained in words of one syllable and usually go away happy, and the obnoxious ones are still waiting in 6 months for what they asked for.

It's 10% across the board but the threshold is set above what most individuals earn. A lot of the industries are state owned so that's where the Government revenue comes from with private industry coming a close second. Education is free for the first ten years and they're slowly bringing in medical support in the rural areas but at present in the cities you pay the hospital, doctor, dentist or whatever. It's cheap by comparison though. One example is a MRI scan. I'm told in England for some reason it's about 8 grand, here it's about 30 quid. My full medical for my job costs 2 bar.

I don't pay any tax as I'm classified as a 'foreign expert.'

Are they still taxing the pensioners over there??

Mr Fireball either missed or chooses to ignore the headline news from some Uni research at the weekend which proved that kids academic ability is the same as it was in 1976 which has been proven by giving them exam papers from that year in which they gained corresponding marks. It went on to prove that this confirmed that kids are not earning higher grades nowadays they are merely being given them (i.e. what used to be a C is now an A) in order to try and brainwash the idiot parents of today that their kids are getting a better level of education than they themselves received.

And if you gave those 1970's kids the 1940s exam papers then they would find them difficult because the curriculum and skills assessed changed. The fact that students who had been taught a 2000s curriculum could do the 1970s papers containing materials which they had not been taught and score similarly to to the 1970s who had been taught the exact curriculum tells you a great deal.

I worked in secondary schools from 1993 to 2005. In that time I saw the teaching profession and school culture evolve massively. When I began no-one looked at individual teacher's results - hence you still had the mixture of committed staff and assholes who read the sporting life in class. When I began good kids got beaten up for trying. When I began we were not allowed to photocopy, had one textbook between four and couldn't afford exercise books.

By 2005 all teachers are under pressure to perform- 3 of the tossers at my school were dismissed on competence- they'd been incompetent for 20 years but only then were there enough teachers and a willingness to improve the staff.

By 2005 every kid had textbooks to take home, access to a computer, a mentor if they needed one and the realistic expectation that if they tried there would be a college place for them.

I don't vote labour either but the biggest step change I have ever known in the quality of what students receive in school was the increase in spending that came in 2001 when Brown stopped sticking to tory budgets.

Children are not brighter but they are MUCH better educated and motivated than when I was at school and even than 10 years ago.

Wasnt this thread discussed about a week ago?

I have to say that by saying that exams are getting easier and graduates are leaving uni with a "false" grade insults me and a lot of my friends who went there. Granted there are a lot of stupid courses you can attend but what about the core subjects, science, maths etc (when I say science I mean Biology, physics and chemistry) should these be also thrown under the umbrella of easy marks and my qualifications reduced?

No i didn't. Quote me were I said that. As for what work one does or doesn't do, ... what exactly do you do as work for your opinion to be valid and others to be wrong on this subject or any other subject you're always right about.

It doesnt matter what people do as a job, if they have a job in this time everyone is equal in my book. I have met soliciters and "mates" from uni that are on over £50k a year and dont know their arse from their elbow but are very good in the field they have chosen.

I was merely refering to putting my three kids through the system which ended when my youngest left the sixth form last year. I have never claimed to have anything to do with the education system other than PTA involvement.

Exactly, but I sense a patronising sneer with the opt out of 'I didn't mean it like that' under a thin veneer. Heard it all before.

Lets not get into that again I wasted half a day at work on that one.

Sorry, I'm not refering to you, but Chips reply, sorry for any misunderstanding.

The education system at 6th form is getting worse. Pupils with a C or low B grade at GCSE are being discouraged from taking the subject at A level. Instead they divert them onto "easier" options to ensure the pupil get the grades to make their college look better..

FFS when did it becoming mandatory for a pupil to get a B grade to enable them to study science at A level (and they say the exams aren't getting easier if they aren't why is no longer good enough to get a pass at GCSE to enable you to progress in the subject.. )

Teachers no longer inspire pupils to aim high and work hard to achieve instead they prefer to cream off all the good pupils to ensure they hit their targets..

Give me on volunteer rather then ten pressed men comes to mind.... surely anyone wanting to achieve should be given the opportunity to do so rather than being shunted off on an imedia or ICT option...

anyway thats enough for the time being...

So much for the brave new world...

whats imedia I have never heard of it. Never understood going for sociology, sport science, etc as its very competitive and popular course for the reasons you have mentioned without any job prospects at the end. Same with the course I did my masters in Forensic Science due to the "csi effect" every man and his dog wants to do it without really knowing what the job entails, luckly I did a placement (i arranged myself) during the completion of my dissertation so had a good reference and got a job straight away.

And thats my point everyone who graduates from uni things they should be "given" a job without having any other experience to back it up, I have told my cousin who is off to uni this week, to get a job while at uni (preferably in or around the subject your doing) and during your final year try and do you dissertation at a placement as it will give you more on your cv and also a reference showing you have work experience in the field.

I have a child going through the education system at the moment.
I can safely say that I don't know of very many people, whose children are going through the various exam stages, who actually say that the exams are getting easier. Most people say the opposite, especially when their children bring home sample papers. I see the effort the kids put in and the opportunities presented to them, and the majority of present day pupils work far more intensely than the students of my day.
A close neighbour of mine happened to enquire about my kid's A level results, one of which was an A in maths. " Ah, but don't you think the exams are so much easier. I've got an A level in maths and the exams in my day were so much harder", says he.
I offered to bring a sample maths paper to his house, give him the required time to do it, offered to get it marked and then offered to stand him and his wife a slap up meal if he got a C or better. If he failed, then he had to buy the meal for me and my wife.
He declined the offer saying he was a bit stale. "That's why I've only asked you to get a C " I said. He still declined.
It is very annoying and insulting when you see the effort most of the kids put in and the staff I might add, only to be informed by these all knowing experts on education that it is all a big fiddle.
Have a go at some of the exams, see how you fare. You're in for a shock I think.

I'm not saying that the exams are any easier (even though the colleges are doing this themselves by no longer saynig that a "C" grade at GCSE is no longer good enough) all I'm saying is that the figures ARE being "manipulated" to ensure better figures for the sixth form colleges... I can't blame them really (as this allows them to get more investments etc etc) but I do thin its unfair that a KEEN student with a "C" at GCSE level is getting shunted down a career path just to "possibly" suit the position in the league tables of the college. When I hear some Teachers saying that students will never be able to do this or that course it makes me shudder. Surely these are the ones who (along with us) we want to inspire our youngsters to higher things (even if it does mean you're supporting them until they're about 25 but that's another story...)

Wouldnt you rather your children be told they cant do a subject because they havent the ability to complete it to a substantial level than let them blindly go ahead with it struggling and wasting at least 3 years of there life trying.

Wasn't this the norm back in the day with the 11+

editted: I would have loved to be a lawyer but was told and realised at an early age my English wasnt up to scratch same with maths, I changed my idea on what I was good at went down the science route which I found easy and went to uni twice. I put that down to being a realist and taking notice of teachers basically telling me I wasnt that good at them subjects (hence good teaching).

Good teaching or making your job easier? Take your pick.. I still believe if someone shows some capability (and if all the supporters of system are to be believed) by passing a GCSE at level C and showing aptitude in the subject they should afforded the chance to try the subject at AS level.

I know for a FACT that certain colleges in town are discouraging pupils from taking certain subjects and pushing them down the "ology" corridor to enable them to artificially "fix" their position in the league tables (this also goes hand in glove with not allowing pupils to attempt an exam if they in their great wisdom have decided they won't pass).

I'm not saying that teachers are lazy just a bit deceitful when it comes down to the crunch..

I'm not in the same league as Mr Snowy when it come to analogies but can you be surprised at your results if you pick Manure for your results rather than darlow...

I understand your point about the teachers choosing exams for the kids, I wasnt allowed to do the higher paper in maths at GCSE even though I was predicted a C, I did the intermediate paper where most I could have got was a B and thats exactly what I got. Who knows I might have gotten an A I might have failed the higher paper but it would have been my choice.

I still hold by my opinion though that why waste a childs time trying to do something they are not apt at doing just for the hell of it especially at A'level when thats all you do. At GCSE you have to do core subjects to give you a educational grip on the world science, english, maths etc.

Your point for arguing with is is the C at GCSE should be enough to go on and do this, and thats evidence that the exams are getting easier, when it just could be that the goal posts have moved and narrowed as there is to many people getting B's and above so the cut off must be there to allow the kids with the higher grades to do the subject.

I concur... but don't they just do this selection at 16 now instead of 11... well I suppose its progress..

BTW where are the steelworks, shipyards and pits..

Maybe they should do a modern apprenticeship in callcentre operating (although it looks like even those are in decline these days)

You really do have a rather unique way of twisting things . 'Hate young people'...? what a sick mind lurks within you, I have always referred to the 'system' that does a good job of promoting the 'gifed and talented' and not producing a system for every child.
I asked you to produce evidence I'd said it, of course you couldn't as per usual and resort to your rather tired tactic of abuse and character assassination, par for the course.
Now answer the question, if I or anyone else isn't allowed an opinion on a subject that affects us, in this case education, unless we are professionally involved, how come your viewpoint is so valid... are you on some government education quango .... or at least the head of department at a red brick university to have such a profound understanding of .... everything?
Do enlighten us....on second thoughts...

Why do people have to resort to insults???????
Is it because their point of view isn't very strong and therefore needs "bulking" up a bit.

Talking down to other people just because they have a different point of view is not very clever.

I agree.

Wouldn't having so many family and friends with a vested interest slightly taint your view??

i haven't claimed to have worked in the field of academia ever, again you make a statement about me that's untrue.
All you've just told me is that you have extensive contact with people in the fields of education and health and therefore you believe them. Fair enough.
Mnd you, you're going to have a slight problem criticising the managers tactics and team selections in future .... unless you can roll out an equally informed list of contacts you have contact with.... because I always was for leaving it to the experts and I think you've just exhausted your supply.
It took some getting there, but tight lines.

There're so many different areas in education...some may have improved, but many others haven't. In spite of all the 'reforms', roughly the same proportion of kids as previous eras are unable to read and write properly when they leave school. Even if 'A' level passes have improved over the same period, I'd say that was at a great cost...writing-off many children along the way, narrowing the focus of education so that the prescribed syllabus and only the prescribed syllabus is taught, reducing teaching to the ticking of boxes.

I know a few teachers, too, Chip. One of them, recently had to be go through assessment in 32 areas, in order to get an up-grade. Her Head's opinion that she's a good teacher is no longer considered a reliable test. Again, my daughter's year 6 teacher, (having had to repeat the entire year 5's work with the children, so that they were 'word-perfect' and the school gained the required number of Level 4s) 'When we get these stupid SATS out of the way, we can get onto some proper work".

It's not even as if the SATs proved anything at all about children's ability.......secondary schools are having to do their own tests because primary SATs are so unreliable.

I concur with you all.

Education has been given more funding because the electorate demanded it. Schools were run down, short of text books and some had never had a computer cross their thresholds.
Teachers get a more realistic wage and, like the rest of us, are accountable.
I don't wish to give credit or blame to political parties, because they all promise the earth and very rarely deliver it.
On a lighter note...................
Mr Mutley, are you seriously expecting us to believe that a student at University can't use a tin opener !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????
Whatever the failings of students are, using a tin opener, a bottle opener or a corkscrew don't number among them.
GCSE's are not easy, nor have they ever been easy. Coming out with a statement like that is akin to demanding our withdrawal from Korea!!!!!!!.
If GCSE's are so easy, go and get yourself a dozen.

Does Snowy work at the baths?

No, he just runs them. !!!!!!!!

i never said any such thing so stop repeating it, I said 'My enduring experience of the education system, which ended a year ago'... that's when my youngest finally left the Sixth Form at Brinkburn,. is that clear enough? I actually explained it in another post but as usual you just ignored it .

No, not now. I used to work for the council and Mill House was part of my job along with some other places. Chip will now tell me I didn't.

Familiar style.

It was meant to be a joke, sorry if it offended you.

Why should I be offended, a fairly innocuous joke, just your style seems familiar.

The same could be said about alot of people in town and not just graduates, hoenstly going down the town the other night and chatting to a few people I am suprised they can even get dressed in the morning. The lack of common sence and knowledge is not endemic of only graduates but a complete lack of the towns (and countries) interest in the world, reading and thirst for learning.

[x] Snowy and Chip need to

Hope Im not speaking out of turn but this thread is a bit shiity tbh and im sure others have been locked for less.

This is clearly them being stupid but isnt intelligence measured on what the person who is asking the question thinks. If I asked you what technique is used in DNA sequencing you might not know but everyone who did biology would and therefore they might view you as thick same if my dad asked me about dovetail joints I wouldnt have a scooby. Its all relative.

Oh I see.
It's nice to have style, although I have never considered myself stylish.
I like your style, it's good to be friends.

You're right of course.

... no problem.

Well done you.

Im sure this young fellow is in good hands and will learn a lot from you.

I'm surprised at the number of casuals, 20 did you say????