I can fully get with where you're coming from with most of what you say, be it on this thread or others, but I cannot buy into the theory that Wilson's team plays "attractive football".

Last season it was "effective football" and therefore people didn't mind what the style was cos we were winning and near the top of the league.

I'd have put up with it this season too if the truth be told in return for a top 6 finish.

But it is anything but "attractive football". It is ugly as opposed to pretty, workmanlike as opposed to flair. Wilson has even admitted that he has no time for pretty football and that he plans to make it even worse to watch next season. Hardly a salesman is he.

So....based on a big fat load of things that haven't happened and some that are actually impossible, you're still banging on about it Roly out of Grange Hill??

And yes, that is an insult and if you want to go home with a big fat pain where your cods used to be, I'm here behind me keyboard and you know where it is.

Im not really bothered about the final position,wether its 8th or 19th the end result is the same.What bothers me is that the season has ben dull and uninteresting we have looked like a team that will settle for mediocrity rather than a team that desperately want to win.

So speaks a true club man, all in the garden is rosy and 'happiness reigns all the year round'... I bet you considered re-election a minor administrative blip of little consequence.
For the record, the ethereal balance sheet can best be described as.... 'the perceived positives of a purist dogma that a pedantic person concentrates on, to exclusion of all other factors, to satisfy their own view of events' or as an analogy, ..... a man who buys a car and praises the bodywork conveniently ignoring the fact that the engine's shagged and it has no wheels, then asks people what the problem is when others point the fact out him ...as he proceeds to carry on 'accentuating the positive'...as the song goes.

OMG you used a CAR ANALOGY!!!

Can you ever forgive me..... ................

Snowy. You've lost the plot. The 'ethereal balance sheet' is your concept, not mine. So you are basically saying that you take a blinkered and partial and subjective view of what is 'progress'. So be it. I am sure it is right and proper that Snowy is King Snowy and always right and never wrong in the Land of Snowy (does the sun ever rise in the Land of Snowy???). Meanwhile, in the real world ....

If the wheels had really fallen off (or whatever the analogy is supposed to be), we'd be (i) in the relegation zone or very near to it or (ii) financially bankrupt with a disenchated financial backer or (iii) suffering drastically reduced crowd attendances or (iv) having our 'star' players (or player) all putting in transfer requests or (v) cutting back on long term signs of health such as the youth team or (vi) evidencing negative statistics in particular aspects of the team's performance eg dozens of red cards or no goals scored. You'll find plenty of evidence in Div 1 of such indicators of a lack of 'progress' at other teams. But they are not evident at Pools. The nearest is a poor away record and goals conceded because of a shaky defence, but the latter must be taken in the context of a goal difference of just -3.

Without banging on about the bag of wind called the 'ethereal balance sheet', tell me where there is any other objective indicator of things going downhill. Some say 'the players don't look as good this season or they don't try hard enough'. But they faced tougher opposition, and some have revealed that they are not good enough to compete and some now realise it. Danny Wilson agrees with that verdict and has said so. But the club couldn't afford to get rid of them all last summer and in any event they deserved their chance. He now says he is sure some are not good enough and he intends to deal with it. Sounds like a plan to me. If Ken trusts his analysis (which I think is right) and trusts his judgment in new players (on which his record is much more mixed), then Danny will be here next season.

Surely this is the bottom line, as Chip has also said, on another thread. How can so many people be disillusioned if performances and management are 'really' OK?

Can you distinguish between those who are defending Wilson and those who are simply attacking all the unfounded statements that have been flying about clouding the issue and quite possibly invalidating what is otherwise quite a plausible conclusion concerning his suitability or lack thereof?

And your evidence is....? Perhaps the size of the crowds? Has a large majority of the crowd gone from last season? Do we hear chants of 'Wilson out' and banners unfurled, like in Scotty's time? You don't like Wilson. Many people don't like Wilson. But this large majority is in your head.



And some very respected people don't



I know Danny Wilson is too because he has said so. And he aims to do better next season. But his analysis is that on the players we have and the money we have, there has been progress. I agree.



Lighten up, man. It didn't happen. We're not doomed this season and there's no reason to think that we're doomed next season. We progressed 11 places. 11 more would be great.



Utter rubbish. Scotty got us relegated. What is Wilson's record over two seasons? The real record, now, not the one in Snowy's ethereal balance sheet.



Agreed he talks dull. But is his team dull? We scored 61 goals this season. Is that dull? It's true we conceded 3 more, but you could say that only adds to the excitement. This is not like watching Man City or the Borer. Actually 61 goals even compares well with last season when we scored 68 goals. Do you think last season was dull too? Didn't you enjoy the unbeaten run? Did you go to Accrington Stanley or Stockport? If the future is promotion every two seasons, record unbeaten runs and some of the highest goal tallies in the Division (including for this season), then so be it. I'll just have to put up with it.

There are 8 of us who stand at the match together, season ticket holders.

None of us want Wilson as manager next season.

I'm not desperate to support Danny Wilson. Whether he goes or stays is not my shout. All I'm saying he has made objective progress this year (and last year) and most of the arguments raised against him are weak or just plain wrong or fail to take account of relevant considerations. Of course, chairmen sometimes panic and take stange decisions and sack managers despite the objective facts and their objective records of achievement. No doubt if enough people are vocal enough, then the chairman might take fright. But that it won't be because, objectively, he has a poor record, or his teams are dull, or the centre half thumped him on behalf of the squad, or the crowds are staying away, or all the star players want to leave etc etc. You haven't answered my last post and offered any objective reasons to get rid of him ('I don't like him and my mates don't like him' is not an objective reason'), with perhaps the exception of the point that his interviews are dull. Is that a good reason for sacking him?

I'd be delighted to get an even better manager than Danny. But Danny would be a hard act to follow after being manager of the year in 2006-07, and after making progress this year. Do you think Mourinho is holding out for the call from Ken?

Everyone from where I sit wants wilson out

that'll be...err...1

Should you go on, Dibbs? Should you go on? You've been going on for days now.......both of you. Just agree to disagree because neither of you are prepared to give way.
Next season we will get what Ken decides we will get.......end of.

Yes.

Go on and on and on and ariston.

What are you having for tea, Ripper?

Dead people.

Would that be people dead from the neck up or just....err......dead people?

Dunno yet.

Depends what's on the menu at the Shite House cos I need to have a walk out to the polling station so gonna have tea out for a change.

My daughter votes for the first time tonight............she's excited..........I wonder how long that will last?
What sort of grub do they do at that establishment?

And the result of all of these alleged terrible blunders is .... progress up the league. Of course, he has made some mistakes. If he got everything right at every match, we'd be even further up the league. And probably he'd have been offered a job at a bigger club and would be away by now. But let's look at his overall record as a manager at Pools over the past two seasons - the good points as well as the bad points. What do you see? Progress up the league each season.

Bog standard pub food I think.

Not eaten there for a long long time and rarely go in even though it's my "local" cos only usually go out on a weekend at which time it's full of tossers.

Hoping that it'll be quieter tonight and that the posers won't be there.

Don't dishearten your daughter you harsh man, she might love the whole experience!

But then again, Danny Wilson is a professional football manager, an ex-international player, and the manager of Hartlepool United.

Whereas you are just a big fat unimportant bag of wind.

So when the voting forms come round........

No I haven't.

A pastie merchant????

Ahhh.....it's FROM a pastie merchant....

Seems like Wilson is getting on with signings for next season which suggests .... Probably nothing for certain in the world of football management. But it does show he wants to 'progress' while he's still in charge. Retained list on Monday?

Women may be able to fake orgasms, but you've just faked an entire season.

If the 'sisters' were on the Titanic when it hit the icberg, they'd see it as an opportunity to test the water proof doors on the bulkheads, the negative side, ........ would pass them by

You lads don't like it when people don't go along with your 'Wilson is shite and he's dragged Pools down' line do you? People are alowed their own opinions you kmow, even if you don't like or agree with them.

......and?

All we need now is a response from the third muskateer, aka Chip.

..and you'll have the full set.

The land of make believe is the Land of Snowy. The football is dull even though we score 60 goals at home. No player has progressed even though James Brown had played well at a higher division. And we are on the Titanic about to sink without trace, even though we are not like the Titanic becuase we are staying afloat in the sea of Div 1 etc etc etc This season has shown progress. You must have missed all the best bits while you were living it large in the Land of Snowy and moaning on to your friends about Danny Wilson.

Now you just keep your hands to yerself, young man.

Good to see you're finally coming round to my way of thinking...I knew you'd see sense in the end.

That's almost as stupid a statement as the one you made about 'thank god for those teams at the bottom who got docked 10 points or we'd have been down'. Take away Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Ferdinand and Giggs and they might struggle too!

Chip says



But that is not my argument. Don't get me wrong. I have argued that finishing 15th in Div 1 is 'progress'. I have also said, contrary to what you claim, that finishing in a relegation spot is clearly not 'progress' as we would then be back to where we started. I've said that finishing one or two above relegation is a difficult case, but that's not where we are going to finish so not to worry. Actually, if we did finish just one place above and one point above relegation, I have the feeling that Ken would get a very itchy trigger finger too.

I agree with much of the rest of your post, but I don't think you tell the full story. For example, it is true that some of his signings turned out to be no good. But it is equally true that some of the players he inherited have shown themselves this season to be not as good as this Division requires.

I'm not Danny Wilson's love child. He has his faults. All I'm saying is the we made it to 15th in Div 1. We were never in the relegation zone. The players are not in revolt. The crowd attendances are still decent. The centre half didn't thump him. It looks like progress and it looks like we could go on from here and make more progress. And, by the way, just because he signed Robbie Elliott, don't blame Danny for the sinking of the Titanic.

Chip

You make some very reasonable points. You say in another thread that below 14th is 'underachieving'. So presumably 14th or above is 'progress'? I say 15th or above is 'progress'. So we are indeed not very far apart at all on our judgments. What I don't see are the clear signs of doom, as predicted by Snowy and pals.

I suppose then the main question is not whether he deserves the sack for the past, but whether he can take us further on in the future. Well in fairness, and leaving aside the stellar case of Barnsley, he did take Bristol Rovers twice to the play offs and he didn't do too badly in 2006-07 at Pools. As for MK Dons, I'm not sure whether it was a fair test as a club until it attained some stability this season. And everyone gets the sack at the Wendies. So, the record shows he's not a sure fire success. But which candidate applying for the Pools job was ever a sure fire success?

I reckon he'll be given another year, but the bar will be set higher next year. So if your prediction is right and we end up 14th or 15th again, he'll go then.

In all honesty, is a touch of arrogance a bad thing in this context?. As supporters we've been on our knees since the club was created and it's only the past ten years that have seen us realise that we can be like any other club with the right backing in place. I believe that demand does stimulate change and that is no bad thing, that's how life improves and football is no exception.
We were all resigned to our position in life football-wise prior to IOR and even after a couple of seasons, the fans were a bit wary for a long time, waiting for the bubble to burst or even wake up thinking it was all a dream. However the roots of self belief are finally establishing themselves and the fans are inevitabely having expectations, any business that produces relative success as Pools have done, will then be expected to perform. We all know it doesn't quite work like that, a bit like those who say "we'll pass on promotion and go up next year when we're prepared for it"... footy aint like that.
I've said before, the genies out of the bottle and it won't go back. Sometimes, watching Ron Young in a sub 2,000 crowd doesn't seem too bad after all, ........ that and the corporate Bovril.
Times move on though and people in general are much more demanding, it's finding the balance, there's the problem.

Yes we can be like any other club and that's great ... BUT ... as I've repeated many times, one thing that binds all these "any other clubs" is the cast iron guarantee that 50% of them will finish in the bottom half of the table.
I think there's a bit of "familiarity breeds contempt" going on after the last 10 years, which is a natural human reaction.

How about a lottery analogy?
100% of those who win play.
100% of those who don't play don't win.
But, also, 99.9% of those who do play don't win (at least not anything significant), although they have just as much chance as "any of the others".

It looks to me as if many of the differences between fans boil down to the fact that some people need rational reasons to fork out for matches, and others will go regardless. Some people just admit the latter, and good luck to them if that's what they want. Others, it seems to me anyway, don't want to admit the truth, that their support isn't really rational at all

(I'm sure MadJohn is my other half in disguise, btw. They say almost exactly the same things about football and about HUFC in particular. Bloody annoying...I come on here to escape that sort of argument )

Or to drive 100 miles to see matches. I'll fully admit that if Pools had looked like doing something in the division this year (by which I mean 2008), I'd have made that trip up the A19 a fair few times. Our little upturn in March was enough to get me off my arse and across to Birkenhead.
Please feel free to call me a fairweather supporter.

I thought you minded being called a fairweather supporter?

Depends who does the calling.

I agree....Kev's a pain in the neck