youd stop going to see pools if they got in the top league,thats not being a fan its the same as somebody who likes ma.u but instead of going for glory your going for lower league football

I can completely understand where you're coming from MadJohn/Snowy, but I really don't think any of these pseudo-political contexts ever cross the mind of young supporters who indulge in both a club like ourselves and a big team like Man Utd. Nor do I think it's at all a patronising notion to say lower league fans instinctively dislike big clubs because everything being said in this debate constitutes exactly that notion one way or another. We all loved it when Leeds had a further fall from grace and we'll always sing "you're not famous anymore" at clubs with an old legacy. I don't think a big club is described as one bigger than Pools either.

The fact is, people want good football. They look to the Premiership.

Capitalism + success = bigger gaps between big clubs and small. There's no hiding that. Sport has been a business for years, you only have to see the ramifications of administration with the likes of Leeds and Luton. You can't turn around now and act like it's an outrage, because it's been the case for the last 30 years. Big stadiums = big revenue. Open market = unlimited gains.

Sport is not at all limited by the open market, nor should it be, and saying that it was a "bad enough crime against English football" to have the break-away is picking away at the nomenclature of the league system. Sky would have always paid for the top division only because that's what the masses want. Promoted teams on a whole haven't stayed up for more than a season for donkeys years.

Big clubs are all from big cities and have big fanbases to compensate. Hartlepool would never have more than 10,000, maybe 12k at a push even if we got to the real heights. We're already consigned to the depths of the Football League. Many of us like it that way, maybe too much (if what Mutley says is true). I've only been following Pools properly for 10 years (in terms of regularly going to the games), and I've always seen that the lower leagues is where we'll belong, and seemingly always will belong.

Points I will agree on are G14 (unnecessary) etc, but it seems like it's actively encouraged by the whole Champions' League concept anyway. I'd say that was more the fault of UEFA.

Liverpool is a prime example of this, when they failed to qualify for the 'Champions League' the season after they won it, the rule was bent and they were allowed in

They failed to qualify that season because they weren’t good enough and for that reason alone shouldn’t have been allowed back in

PS

And Gerrard is a pea hearted talentless long legged buffoon

Prior to the late 80's, the old first division was a source of pleasure. it was the top flight and very entertaining, especially in the 70's, then along came the leeches, the money people, the image moulders....and mediocrity was given a fanfare, a fancy new name and top flight football became an exclusive soap opera. I'Ve despaired over the past few years as a dumbed down audience have flocked to worship a t the premiership, whose marketing was not aimed at people through the turnstile, they're just extra's for effect, but at the commercial armchair participants market, a far more lucrative and rewarding payback in everything from replica kits to wide screen TV's...
We as a nation are becoming as dumb as f*** and eventually gonna lose a lot more.
What's to say in 20 years time the only pro team around here is Tees Valley United...? I dare say the proposed new tram system will speed you through to the Tees Valley Stadium (formerly known as the Riverside) and your offspring will wonder why you still go to see Pools......" cos they're shite" ...... and our local MP will be looking forward to Tees Valley Utd's coming season, he is a season ticket holder there after all.

I thought TGP was defending the right of a 16yr old to support his team and go and watch pools as well. Well done TGP, we need more people through our turnstiles and if they happen to support another team but are willing to pay and watch us, then we should be welcoming them and asking them to bring friends instead of reacting with the equivelent of 'little mans disease'

Your debate on the premiership, the politics of football corporations, the obsessive marketing to armchair fans ( and frankly that is just good business as I don't see a half full Old Trafford even when they are playing someone shyte) by the way is excellent, articulate and well debated and I congratulate you on that.

I liike the way you distinguish between 'admirer' and 'supporter' I just don't think many people have stopped to analyse that deeply, when the words 'football' and 'supporter' are so intrinsically linked plus the fact that if you were in the pub and came out with 'I'm an admirer of manchester utd' you would sound like a girl, (no offence to the laydees intended)

please keep this debate going as it makes interesting reading

According to Dibble's world.

So long as there is a clear order of preference then I see no problem.

If this kid supports Pools and Man U but his clear preference is Man U then what is the problem?

I know you do.

You'd have thought that with all of the practice that you've had you would be quite good at it by now though.

I really don't see how you can dismiss my views on football because I chose to support Man Utd as a very small child (at no small level of coercion by my father) and haven't "forsaken" my choice when I got older?
As for wouldn't it be cheaper to support Hartlepool and go to see them, yes it would be, but my heart lies with Man Utd, and I'm not going to take "the cheap option".
No body likes what is happening to football, it's becoming a commercialized industry, and it isn't just the Premier League, lower league prices have sky-rocketed aswell. I wasn't alive when the old league one was in full flow"when men were men and footballs were leather", thats my dad's era, I'm sure if I'd have been born some time during the years when they didn't win much I'd still be a Man Utd fan.
I hardly consider Hartlepool to be a "local" club anymore, how many of the players are local lads now? Long gone are the days when you knew the players and they lived down the road.. they earn 5x what most of you here earn, they drive fancy cars and it's not like they don't have a foreign contingent, Joel Porters from Oz for god sake!
Hartlepool's attraction to me was always a social thing, most of the people I used to go to matches with were all "dual-supporters" when they were younger, and we went to watch football socially, I can tell you half of them are only die-hard Hartlepool supporters because it was to much effort to go and support Newcastle and Sunderland ect.
I made a decision, I couldn't afford to go to both Man Utd and Hartlepool, and since my dad was always a Man Utd supporter through and through, and I had been raised the same, I made the harder decision. You might think supporting Man Utd was the "easy way out" but I can tell you that traveling on the hundred mile round trip to watch them get beat by Bolton away was harder than getting beat by Brighton. The highs and lows might not be as erratic, but they still hurt.

How could I possibly disagree with anything you say after that
I would also add I hate footballers as a principle, they get over paid for what they do, but unfortunatly, they're in high demand. I've only ever spoken to one footballer at any length (Adam Boyd) and he sounded over-paid, wonder how that works.
On a lighter note my dad taught him to drive, then 3 weeks after he passed his test he crashed his Mazda. Clearly his feet wern't as nimble on the breaks as they against Sheff Wed when he scored that Hatrick

Dion, what is it with you...? you give us a few dismissive reasons why you don't 'support' Pools and seem to want us all to 'understand' why you support Man U, then appear genuinely puzzled when everyone doesn't.
If you wanna 'support' Man U , get on with it and leave us to talk about our team..as for the hardship of having to travel to watch them..... do me a favour

Because you quote me without even consulting me and start slagging me off without thinking I'm ever going to reply. I started by explaining the situation (because some people thought I supported two teams) then something of a flame war started saying I should be a Hartlepool fan with no exceptions.
The whole post started because people were saying I was having at go at ticket prices, when that seems to be one of the main reasons you hate the Premier League.
And hardship of having to travel "don't make me laugh" you live what? a 10 min walk away from the stadium? I make more of an effort supporting my team than you do, yet you seem to dislike the fact that someone supports the "evil" commercial marketing machine. I don't seek your "understanding" because quite frankly I don't care, what I do dislike is the fact you posted a comment I made on another site, take it out of context and then "slag me off" for no reason other than the football club I chose to support and yet know nothing about my background. The patronising comments like "well one day maybe he'll have a U-Turn and do the right thing" don't help either.

Whatever.....

To be fair Dib, these Man U posts by Dion only appear dull and uninteresting till you get to really study them ..then they're just plain boring.

If you define local as coming from Hartlepool or the towns near Hartlepool then:
Nelson
Clark
Robson
Elliott
Liddle
Barron
Brown
Sweeney
Foley
Turnbull
Mackay
Rae

Working on that quote I should be supporting Billingham Town, because it's to much effort to come all the way through to Hartlepool. As it happens, I was supporting Town's U16's today, all the way over in darkest Newton Aycliffe, well it was raining most of the game. Despite losing our son to a knee injury after 20 mins, they fought gamely on to get a 2-2 draw.

Dion,

Go and eat your own liver.