Panorama Tonight

[Javed Miandad Stance]

Any other country in the world that programme would be enough to topple the government.

[Monkeybutt]

When's The Revolution? by Millie Tant.

[Javed Miandad Stance]

You may be a drain on NHS resources but at least you have the decency to be jolly.

[Mr Irrelevant]

Is that The Sam Panorama that is produced by the anti government BBC? It’s much like the rest of the left, it was relevant for a while but not any more.

[Watching from afar]

This the bbc that doesn't interrogate any Tory mp after their daily lies? And there are many many lies to interrogate.

If this had been Corbyn etc.

[yloop]

The anti government BBC

[PJPoolie]

[quote="Mr Irrelevant"]Is that The Sam Panorama that is produced by the anti government BBC? It’s much like the rest of the left, it was relevant for a while but not any more.[/



You really are becoming a parody of yourself.

Aye Laura Kuenssberg always gives Johnson such a hard time. It’s as if she wants him to be her Dad. Mind the law of averages given the amount of illegitimate children he has says he might be.

[RemotePoolie]

Aye Laura Kuenssberg always gives Johnson such a hard time. It’s as if she wants him to be her Dad. Mind the law of averages given the amount of illegitimate children he has says he might be.

I suppose Andrew Neil is also bessie mates with Jeremy Corbyn?

[Watching from afar]

this the andrew neil and BBC that somehow didnt manage to interview/destroy Boris the Butcher priot to the elction. But by some some miracle, every other leader was ripped apart.

[horden]

Counting each glove of a pair as a separate item. Counting paper towels as PPE. And when NHS staff plead, then fall ill, then die, offering £60,000 for each human life. A eugenicist on a scientific committee. No ‘all in it together’ from me.
‘Socialism doesn’t work, it’s against human nature’ say right wingers. The lesson from this disaster, as from similar throughout history, is that, in extremis, the vast majority of people do care about each other. We crave and offer solidarity and human support.
There is a minority who do not, who seek to profit from the situation or who shout about ‘individual freedom’ and seek to carry on as before, putting themselves and others in danger. Many of those are supporters of this government and its equivalent round the world, and in powerful positions in business and the media - especially in the newspaper industry.
That minority use their power and influence to give the impression that they speak for us all, but they speak only for themselves.
When their power and ability to communicate their ideas without censure is taken away from them they inevitably cry ‘infringement of personal freedom and property rights.

[born toulouse]

You have to move with the times Mr I. The current Tories should be chuffed to bits about the success of their plan to bully the top management of the BBC using the licence fee to frighten them. Producers were given an instruction to go easy on ministers because of the circumstances and the likes of Nick Robinson and Laura Kuensberg, both obvious political appointees, have been cuddling up to them more than ever.

I'm sure there are still plenty of lefties and liberally-minded journalists around but the BBC management now specialises in wringing its hands and shedding crocodile tears while doing exactly what the government demands.

[Watching from afar]

Laura Kuensberg is the worst ever. That interview she did with Butcher Boris on a park bench was cringeworthy to the extreme. It was remarkable the BBC would allow itself to be seen in such light. But it did.

[horden]

Kuenesberg is horrible , even I wouldn't give her one

[The Fat Man]

Aye Laura Kuenssberg always gives Johnson such a hard time. It’s as if she wants him to be her Dad. Mind the law of averages given the amount of illegitimate children he has says he might be.

Dad? You haven't heard the rumours then?

[The Fat Man]

When I saw the title to this thread I was going to post a sarcastic, 'but it's the leftie BBC, innit'. Nice to see Mr I got in first with the parody comment. Cheers marra. Nice to see you've still got a sense of humour in these hard times.

[The Fat Man]

Kuenesberg is horrible , even I wouldn't give her one

No need for the casual misogyny.

[Mr Irrelevant]

Ah, so parody is the new Marxist insult on here.

Unless your opinion is in line with the failed leftie agenda you’re a parody. Unless you are oh so wise after the event you’re a parody. Unless you take your view from that utter petulant shithouse Owen Jones then you’re a parody.

The irony is that a lot of you don’t realise how much of a parody you have become yourselves. You’re a bunch of socialist worker placards brought to life. Fortunately no one is listenening you you except each other. Boris will come out of this even more popular and you’ll become more beetroot faced and apoplectic by the day.

[PJPoolie]

Said nothing again there.

Not a bit of substance, no defence of the government, no reasoning, no facts.

It’s pathetic to watch.

It’s like reading the mad musings in the final days of someone defending a toppling dictatorship.

[Mr Irrelevant]

Simply because I can’t be bothered. It’s not worth my energy to argue with the insanity of your little gang.

[PJPoolie]

Simply because I can’t be bothered. It’s not worth my energy to argue with the insanity of your little gang.

You can’t be bothered?

That old chestnut.

It’s the new ‘the Science’.

A bit like Boris during January and February though you are at least mirroring your glorious leaders conduct.

All the people pointing out stuff that is happening are ‘insane’ though.

Very reasoned behaviour.

[Mr Irrelevant]

Bollocks John. There’s no point in reply because your rabid cabal jump on any alternative viewpoint. I have no need to argue because I’m perfectly happy with the overall performance of the government and I believe that they’re doing the best they can on the information available at the time any given decision is made. I am certain that while mistake will have been made, everyone is doing the best they can. That would be the case for any group of people fighting this crisis.

You and your minions are the ones throwing ridiculous accusations about, if I choose not to waste my time arguing then that’s a matter for me because my position is the status qho.

[PJPoolie]

Said nowt again.

[PJPoolie]

I’d love just one example of a ridiculous accusations being thrown about.

Most of the stuff being talked about on here is based facts that are in the public domain. You can surely be bothered to address one issue?

[Javed Miandad Stance]

Why don't you try watching the programme and listening to the interviews with the nurses and doctors working on the front line ? You know, the people actually doing job, and the ones you will be relying on when you inevitably end up going in there.

[Jhumps84]

Panorama is one of those shows though. I don't think it's a lefty agenda as it'll attack pretty much anyone on any topic. The problem is they tend to only look at one part of the story and present it as fact, then package it up as an outrage story. It does kind of belong on channel 4 and not BBC though, as it's far from impartial and belongs on a channel with an agenda, not a national broadcaster. Look at previous shows and the one about anti-semitism int he Laour party. It wanted story X, found a number of people who tell that story and support it. Ignore the other side and question people who say it's bollocks and edit it to make it look like they're liars and avoiding the truth then show it to gain as much debate and ratings as possible. It's utter trash and you'll never win by engaging with it.

That aside, while they may be on to something here, but there's not much that can be done about it now so save it for the enquiry. Let people get on with their jobs, get as much equipment as is possible given the damnd is from the whole world and look at what could have been done better or worse when all this is over based on what was known at the time, without applying the gift of hindsight to it all. It's very easy to critise all of this 2-3 weeks down the line but at the time the decision was made, that was the available information and someone made a judgement call based on that. It's all very human. Christ

[Montpoolier]

This isn't the first time there have been politicians doing their very best but to absolutely no avail because
a) they are not being entirely unselfish and/or
b) they are incompetent (which to me all politicians are until proved otherwise)

[The Fat Man]

Ah, so parody is the new Marxist insult on here.

Unless your opinion is in line with the failed leftie agenda you’re a parody. Unless you are oh so wise after the event you’re a parody. Unless you take your view from that utter petulant shithouse Owen Jones then you’re a parody.

The irony is that a lot of you don’t realise how much of a parody you have become yourselves. You’re a bunch of socialist worker placards brought to life. Fortunately no one is listenening you you except each other. Boris will come out of this even more popular and you’ll become more beetroot faced and apoplectic by the day.

I was trying to lighten the mood with a joke. A bit of humour; thought you might like it. Anyway, you've really cheered me up anyway; I'm really laughing at the way you've taken it as an insult and you're complaining that I'm insulting someone I don't agree with. This, from the guy who makes up insults all the time for those he doesn't agree with. It's really making me chuckle, whether intentional or not. Ta.

Don't know if you've noticed, but there's at least one guy on here whose politics have shifted in the last week. Someone who's surprised me. He hasn't followed Owen Jones or anyone else; he's engaged his mind, looked at the evidence, and clearly thought, 'holy fuck'.

[Watching from afar]

Impressed me too.

[Javed Miandad Stance]

Panorama is one of those shows though. I don't think it's a lefty agenda as it'll attack pretty much anyone on any topic. The problem is they tend to only look at one part of the story and present it as fact, then package it up as an outrage story. It does kind of belong on channel 4 and not BBC though, as it's far from impartial and belongs on a channel with an agenda, not a national broadcaster. Look at previous shows and the one about anti-semitism int he Laour party. It wanted story X, found a number of people who tell that story and support it. Ignore the other side and question people who say it's bollocks and edit it to make it look like they're liars and avoiding the truth then show it to gain as much debate and ratings as possible. It's utter trash and you'll never win by engaging with it.

That aside, while they may be on to something here, but there's not much that can be done about it now so save it for the enquiry. Let people get on with their jobs, get as much equipment as is possible given the damnd is from the whole world and look at what could have been done better or worse when all this is over based on what was known at the time, without applying the gift of hindsight to it all. It's very easy to critise all of this 2-3 weeks down the line but at the time the decision was made, that was the available information and someone made a judgement call based on that. It's all very human. Christ

You talk like the number crunching middle management type that send staff on front line emails threatening to end their career if they speak to journalists, while desperately brushing stuff under the carpet, while they risk their lives because you couldn't do your job properly .
Lets have an enquiry 10 year down the line and appoint one of our own to Chair it - that's your perspective is it ?

[Watching from afar]

Panorama is one of those shows though. I don't think it's a lefty agenda as it'll attack pretty much anyone on any topic. The problem is they tend to only look at one part of the story and present it as fact, then package it up as an outrage story. It does kind of belong on channel 4 and not BBC though, as it's far from impartial and belongs on a channel with an agenda, not a national broadcaster. Look at previous shows and the one about anti-semitism int he Laour party. It wanted story X, found a number of people who tell that story and support it. Ignore the other side and question people who say it's bollocks and edit it to make it look like they're liars and avoiding the truth then show it to gain as much debate and ratings as possible. It's utter trash and you'll never win by engaging with it.

That aside, while they may be on to something here, but there's not much that can be done about it now so save it for the enquiry. Let people get on with their jobs, get as much equipment as is possible given the damnd is from the whole world and look at what could have been done better or worse when all this is over based on what was known at the time, without applying the gift of hindsight to it all. It's very easy to critise all of this 2-3 weeks down the line but at the time the decision was made, that was the available information and someone made a judgement call based on that. It's all very human. Christ

You really believe all you have just written there?

You really believe MPs, even when the evidence is put in front fo them, say something completely different?

You still really believe that?

[Monkeybutt]

Said nowt again.

Team McQ

[PJPoolie]

I wouldn’t expect you to add anything of note as you never do or have.

[Jhumps84]

Panorama is one of those shows though. I don't think it's a lefty agenda as it'll attack pretty much anyone on any topic. The problem is they tend to only look at one part of the story and present it as fact, then package it up as an outrage story. It does kind of belong on channel 4 and not BBC though, as it's far from impartial and belongs on a channel with an agenda, not a national broadcaster. Look at previous shows and the one about anti-semitism int he Laour party. It wanted story X, found a number of people who tell that story and support it. Ignore the other side and question people who say it's bollocks and edit it to make it look like they're liars and avoiding the truth then show it to gain as much debate and ratings as possible. It's utter trash and you'll never win by engaging with it.

That aside, while they may be on to something here, but there's not much that can be done about it now so save it for the enquiry. Let people get on with their jobs, get as much equipment as is possible given the damnd is from the whole world and look at what could have been done better or worse when all this is over based on what was known at the time, without applying the gift of hindsight to it all. It's very easy to critise all of this 2-3 weeks down the line but at the time the decision was made, that was the available information and someone made a judgement call based on that. It's all very human. Christ

You talk like the number crunching middle management type that send staff on front line emails threatening to end their career if they speak to journalists, while desperately brushing stuff under the carpet, while they risk their lives because you couldn't do your job properly .
Lets have an enquiry 10 year down the line and appoint one of our own to Chair it - that's your perspective is it ?

Woah calm down, there's no need for being insulting like that. I'm just sayin Panorama is very one sided in its argument and it should be taken with some pinch of salt. If being fed something that fits your agenda is all you want to hear then fine thats you, all i'm saying is that you know there's often more to it. I don't disagree with many of the findings, it's just not helpful right now, and neither is insulting someone just because they have a slightly different opinion to you. It's ok to have a different opinion, and sometimes it's worth listening too to understand where people are coming from rather than just throw insults. Grow up and engage with people sensibly

[Jhumps84]

Panorama is one of those shows though. I don't think it's a lefty agenda as it'll attack pretty much anyone on any topic. The problem is they tend to only look at one part of the story and present it as fact, then package it up as an outrage story. It does kind of belong on channel 4 and not BBC though, as it's far from impartial and belongs on a channel with an agenda, not a national broadcaster. Look at previous shows and the one about anti-semitism int he Laour party. It wanted story X, found a number of people who tell that story and support it. Ignore the other side and question people who say it's bollocks and edit it to make it look like they're liars and avoiding the truth then show it to gain as much debate and ratings as possible. It's utter trash and you'll never win by engaging with it.

That aside, while they may be on to something here, but there's not much that can be done about it now so save it for the enquiry. Let people get on with their jobs, get as much equipment as is possible given the damnd is from the whole world and look at what could have been done better or worse when all this is over based on what was known at the time, without applying the gift of hindsight to it all. It's very easy to critise all of this 2-3 weeks down the line but at the time the decision was made, that was the available information and someone made a judgement call based on that. It's all very human. Christ

You really believe all you have just written there?

You really believe MPs, even when the evidence is put in front fo them, say something completely different?

You still really believe that?

I do believe it yeah, i think MPs, civil servants are just people and they make judgements based on what's infront of them and yep often make mistakes, and thsat applies to any party. They are human. I'm not sure how you go to the point of saying somthing different to what's in front of them, that wasn't the point i was trying to make. I was aaying, someone, somewhere made a call on something thinking one thing and it was wrong, now were going after them like some crazy witch hunt. Yes, peaople have died and they need to live with that decision, but just calm down a bit, remember these are people too in a job where their decisions impact peoples lives and deaths. I'm just glad i'm not doing it.

[Mr Irrelevant]

As in the diagram.

Mr Humphs posted a reasonable view but was instantly pounced on by the leftwaffe. As is the left’s way, agree with everything and you’ll be vilified. There’s a former MP in Stoke who I’ve got to know, Ruth Smeeth. This exactly her view but then she’s Jewish so she doesn’t count in the momentum world.

[Jhumps84]

I wasn't even trying to stand up for the right here. Personally i think govt have been very cute citing "following scientific advice" which roughly translates to if this all goes wrong, we'll hang them out to dry. But god, people are dying, now isn't the time to be getting angry at other people on messages boards for saying come on see it from another point of view. Equally, no party, whatever the colour would have done everything 100% right, because they are people and have biews and make mistakes, so making it all politically charged is utterly abhorrent right now

[Monkeybutt]

I wouldn’t expect you to add anything of note as you never do or have.

Political Correctness: Noah Fence

[Javed Miandad Stance]

How is suggesting someone sounds like middle management offensive ?
I tell you what is fucking insulting, describing a programme where nurses are actually asked for their views and then letting them express it as trash, without even fucking watching it.

[Watching from afar]

Ok stand up for them then. I and others will continue to call them out on their lies and deceit. Lies and deceit which are there for all to see.

Then they compound it all by denying ever saying what's just been shown to them.

But hey they are only human.

Not the sort of humans I like to spend time with but human nonetheless.

You seem to be another one, with respect, that doesn't actually debate the points put in front of them.

Tou say there is another side to the PPE debacle. Tell us what it is then.

[PJPoolie]

I wasn't even trying to stand up for the right here. Personally i think govt have been very cute citing "following scientific advice" which roughly translates to if this all goes wrong, we'll hang them out to dry. But god, people are dying, now isn't the time to be getting angry at other people on messages boards for saying come on see it from another point of view. Equally, no party, whatever the colour would have done everything 100% right, because they are people and have biews and make mistakes, so making it all politically charged is utterly abhorrent right now

I agree. Mr I’s last post was about as low as anyone has sunk so far. It’s surely only fair if someone opposes the view you are putting across to such an extent that they are throwing around insults that at least and some reasoning and counter argument other than ‘I can’t be bothered’ and loads of quite baffling stuff about Jeremy Corbyn. It’s mental.

But we aren’t talking about small judgements of error here either, we are talking catastrophic ones that have cost tens thousands of lives.

[Watching from afar]

How is suggesting someone sounds like middle management offensive ?
I tell you what is fucking insulting, describing a programme where nurses are actually asked for their views and then letting them express it as trash, without even fucking watching it.

Agree with this. Boris the butcher has 21,000+ deaths on his watch, yet it's the nurses that get attacked for trash.

[Watching from afar]

Looking like around another 600 deaths today. Fast just be coming a number aren't they?

And a very well hidden wrong number at that.

[horden]

Just came into this , after a nice long walk, I wish I'd stayed out., leftie, leftwaffe , momentum, Owen Jones, Marxist cabal , Jesus Christ ! sounds like there's only one apoplectic person with a beetroot face on here , and he appears to have morphed into his hero Boris Johnson.

[PJPoolie]

https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/ ... 65636?s=21

[Jhumps84]

How is suggesting someone sounds like middle management offensive ?
I tell you what is fucking insulting, describing a programme where nurses are actually asked for their views and then letting them express it as trash, without even fucking watching it.

For the last time, calm the fuck down. I did watch it. I'm not undermining any point in the programme that they made. What i am saying is that the programme has an agenda, and then chose people who speak to that agenda. Did it tell the other story of what decisions were made and why? No it did not. Did it show the person in an office with head in their hands having made a wrong decision which they are probably very sorry for...no it did not. There are two sides to the human story here. And that is my issue, it incites rage without telling the whole story and then people act on that without knowing the whole story. It's not the time and panorama is not a full investigation of the issue.

Suggesting something of anyone to dismiss their comment because of what you think they are is insulting. What does it matter what someones does, does it devalue their opinion? That's what i found insulting, you devalued my comment because of what you think i am, not the comment itself. And how dare you think you are absolutely right just because of what you heard on TV and anyone who isn't you or doesn't agree with you can't possibly have anything useful to add. For your information i work for a company trying to find a vaccine for this shit...but what is the point if people can't even be civil to each other because they're hot under the collar of something they saw on TV. Grow up, calm downa nd understand that people think differently and you know thats ok if they don't think the same as you...don't belittle them into being some sort of middle manager

[Soma]

I've been reading the Bunker pretty regularly for the last few weeks, since the lockdown really, given how much time I have. In that time I'm yet to really see any reasonable, evidence-based argument for the government in that time. Granted, I think some people are little aggressive at times in attacking this government but there are also a lot of very reasonable people putting reasonable criticisms out there. The typical response from those trying to defend the government (if you can call it that) is to dismiss/ignore those points and turn the thread into a slanging match.

I'm more than willing to hear a genuine opposition to my view, I'm not entrenched. Given actual facts or explanations I would happily shift my position. In fact I'm actively seeking some opposing views because I want someone to convince me that I'm wrong. To convince me that this government isn't as incompetent as I believe it to be. I'm yet to be convinced, mostly because no one in support of the government on this board has actually tried yet.

At the end of the day, an effective government is what will get us out of this crisis as unscathed as possible and regardless of politics that is what I, and the majority of others, actually want.

[Monkeybutt]

For the last time, calm the fuck down. I did watch it. I'm not undermining any point in the programme that they made. What i am saying is that the programme has an agenda, and then chose people who speak to that agenda. Did it tell the other story of what decisions were made and why? No it did not. Did it show the person in an office with head in their hands having made a wrong decision which they are probably very sorry for...no it did not. There are two sides to the human story here. And that is my issue, it incites rage without telling the whole story and then people act on that without knowing the whole story. It's not the time and panorama is not a full investigation of the issue.

Suggesting something of anyone to dismiss their comment because of what you think they are is insulting. What does it matter what someones does, does it devalue their opinion? That's what i found insulting, you devalued my comment because of what you think i am, not the comment itself. And how dare you think you are absolutely right just because of what you heard on TV and anyone who isn't you or doesn't agree with you can't possibly have anything useful to add. For your information i work for a company trying to find a vaccine for this shit...but what is the point if people can't even be civil to each other because they're hot under the collar of something they saw on TV. Grow up, calm downa nd understand that people think differently and you know thats ok if they don't think the same as you...don't belittle them into being some sort of middle manager[/quote]

[Jhumps84]

I've been reading the Bunker pretty regularly for the last few weeks, since the lockdown really, given how much time I have. In that time I'm yet to really see any reasonable, evidence-based argument for the government in that time. Granted, I think some people are little aggressive at times in attacking this government but there are also a lot of very reasonable people putting reasonable criticisms out there. The typical response from those trying to defend the government (if you can call it that) is to dismiss/ignore those points and turn the thread into a slanging match.

I'm more than willing to hear a genuine opposition to my view, I'm not entrenched. Given actual facts or explanations I would happily shift my position. In fact I'm actively seeking some opposing views because I want someone to convince me that I'm wrong. To convince me that this government isn't as incompetent as I believe it to be. I'm yet to be convinced, mostly because no one in support of the government on this board has actually tried yet.

At the end of the day, an effective government is what will get us out of this crisis as unscathed as possible and regardless of politics that is what I, and the majority of others, actually want.

In my view and again not trying to defend government here but there are some key points to bear in mind. SARS and MERS never made it over here so why would there have been any reason in Jan/Feb to think this would and they were the most recent examples of anything like this. Nobody has ever seen it before so how can you judge it, how quickly and easily it could spread. The lower death rates in China could have lead people into a false sense of security. I have no idea why China was lower, could be they lied, could be that there is some immunity anyway to corona viruses as they've gone round before but not as severe as this one...who knows. Given it takes 25 days from infection to being in ICU by the time people really realised what had happened it was already almost too late. Even when italy took off that was 14 days before the UK, thats still 11 days of no action. PPE is in short supply and this should have been acted on quicker, especially with such high global demand, someone has to lose out and we have. I think those things drove some really bad decisions which should be questioned. I don't think any governement would have dealt well with it, but yes lives could proabably have been saved. Equally there are things we can't change. We have a densely populated country...and that's fine before people think that's a brexit type thing. We have high obesity and a certain amount of the population living longer but not living well which really isn't going to end well for a pandemic. Close proximity to other people that are at risk has been our ultimte downfall and only complete and utter isolation would have saved them, which just isn't realistic in the world.

So is governement incompitent. Probably yes. When you take into account the above, it was never going to go well whoever was in charge, especially as any govt would have followed "scientific advice". There's nothing wrong with the scientific advice either, they're just as much in the dark too and making the best choices they can too. Nobody has ever seen this before. So i don't think a political argument is appropriate at this time and there are a hell of a lot of factors which could change the outcome of all of this. But that's just my thoughts/views and i'm not likely to be right

[Javed Miandad Stance]

So why didn't you put forward that argument start then instead of dismissing the programme as trash with an agenda, in a partnosing a demeaning way ?
I have not seen anything that suggests the key points made were not factually accurate and that the government was rapidly moving goalposts or fiddling figures to cover its arse

[Javed Miandad Stance]

Also if mistakes are being made or there are shortages why not just apologise for the mistakes or accept there are shortages.
Instead of this bullshit we are sorry if you feel that way, which is basically the same as saying we are sorry if you are not intelligent enough to see things as they are.