I didn't think I'd ever say this - but well done to HM Revenue and Customs. They have not accepted Leeds United's revised offer to pay a whopping 8p in the £ on their debts and are going to challenge the matter in the courts. This frustrates Master Bates plan to buy back the club for a pittance. Move over Administrators and let the Liquidiators in

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6266508.stm

Poor old Master Bates

If they go into liquidation, no-one except KPMG will get a penny.

The Leeds United you know will cease to be and Leeds United 2007 will appear seven seconds after Leeds United disappear. Bates will apply to the league for the new 'owners' of the old club, to take the place of Leeds United and the league will agree, The players contracts will be transferred to the new company, they will rent Elland Road and Wetherby Training Ground from the present owners and it'll all be seamless.

It's just a different way of working the system.

Not quite PK.

If they don't pay what are deemed to be "football debts" in full then they won't be allowed to stay in the league, they'll have to do an Aldershot or Scarborough instead.

I think thats what he meant by transferring the players contracts.

Partly aye. Compared to the rest of the debts, what they owe in terms of 'football debts, i.e. players and other clubs within the league is miniscule and Bates'd just take them on the chin. They've already banked a fair wad in season tickets so the ongoing contracts are taken care of anyway. Soon as they get the green light they'll bank a million for Healy as well as half a mill for that other kid that everyone is raving about.

Paying off the rest of these crumbs would be part of the deal with the league.

The whole world of Insolvency is riddled with legalised corruption.

Don't the liquidators sell to the highest bidder rather than just to Bates? Others (including Revie's son) were recently offering more for the club than than Bates but the Administrators chose Bates because his offer was accepted by the major creditors based in the Carribean who had some murky links with Bates.

It does seem to mean that it will be some time before they can sign any new players so if/when they sell their "stars" they will be left with the dross. If this isn't sorted out until the transfer deadline they may not be able to buy any players until January. It could also put an end to the rumours that Monkhouse might be going to Leeds.

No, there's three levels of Insolvency. Administration is when the accountants are called voluntarily in to do a deal with all the creditors and then the same company emerges debt free and trades on. Receivership is when the accountants are put in by a major creditor, usually the bank or the Revenue to recover their debt and maximise the return, usually by trying to sell the company as a going concern which rarely happens. If that isn't an option, i.e. the company isn't worth buying, the Liquidators, the third level, come in, sell everything they can and pay the creditors what is available, usually the grand total of SFA after the accountants fees are taken out. In this case the company ceases to exist.

Leeds already sold the silver, the money available is what Bates is willing to put in.

So options 2 is the one where the other buyers get the chance to outbid Bates. It might not work in other business areas but I think there would be a few consortia interested in Leeds. If its 10 point deduction for Admin what is it for Receivership?

Well Receivership effectively winds up the Company. Sold as a going concern any purchaser has to take on the existing debts and you'd have to be fookin mad to do that. This is why it rarely happens unless the company owns some solid gold patents or something like that which will mean it'll pay for itself in the long run.

Difference being the owners call in the Administrators and the creditors send in the Receivers. As they're already taking self imposed Insolvency action, they're effectively fireproof unless the courts intervene but as it's the Revenue who put the muscle on when Leeds were already steadily repaying them, thus leading to Administration, it'll look good for Leeds in the Courts and bad on the Revenue. Given time the Revenue would have got the lot and Leeds will be pointing this out to the Courts. The Revenue have cooked their own goose but I understand there's been questions in the house from some busybody MPs up in Harrogate and it looks like they've panicked.

As we know MPs are a bunch of self aggrandising bounders and this would have got them in the papers a few times.

The whole saga stinks to high heaven.

They owe Mr Tax Man £7.7 million, and the offer was 1p in the £1, then a miracle happened and because Mr Tax Man said No No No the offer jumped to 8p in the £1, or £700k. There's a rat away when KPMG recommend selling back to Bates, in who's best interests is it to do that?

What makes my blood boil is as soon as this is sorted out they'll be throwing money around to sign new players, and what happened about that last day of the season pitch invasion? Probably nothing, they are a big club who don't deserve to be in League One after all.

Right well what'll have happened there, is that everyone in the pot will have been offered 1p in the pound and some of the largest creditors will have waived their payment thus leaving more for the others, i.e. the Revenue. It is said that the largest creditors are offshore companies (not our feller) with backgrounds that are untraceable. The cash available to the creditors is finite and is paid directly proportionately to what is owed on your 'penny per pound' basis.

So the less people who claim their payment means that the others that do, get more.

In effect they aren't selling the company to him, they're letting him retain control in return for a cash injection.

But what's the advantage of me not taking my payment, I understand the questionable offshore companies, but if I'm an SME who has lost out on 25k, I'm going to demand as much as possible just to be bloody akward. There again I suppose there aren't enough of me to make over 25% of the vote.

Grrr!

Almost exactly spot on. Only the big boys can make a difference and if they do it right, they always have 51% of everything, including the debts, that way they remain in total control. They probably have Credit Insurance and so can reclaim a large slice of it that way, plus the VAT. They barely feel the sting but the smaller fish perish.

It's a cruel world.

Like all the rest some of you on here claim to know more about LUFC than we do and generally most people appear to know more about Bates than Mrs Bates does.

Wishing any club out of business says more about you splod than it does about LUFC or Bates.

LUFC has been badly managed - no more no less. As part of that poor management LUFC has paid over the odds for players and over the odds for players wages. That has indirectly put more money in the taxmans pocket than he would otherwise have expected - but that's not enough - taxman appears to want blood and to hell with the (innocent) fans. Taxman could have rescheduled but chose to go for broke. Tax avoidance is rife - many on here will be actively involved in tax avoidance. Every time you pay cash or ask for cash for a guvvy job or put money in your wife's name etc etc etc.

Moral judgement doesn't hold water. CVA is a legitimate business tool. LUFC fans did not sanction stupid spending. Most of us knew that Risdale and O'Leary had lost the plot but we couldn't stop 'em.

West Ham have shown themselves as cheats and yet they get away with it. LUFC simply cocked up. Fans are the only one's to suffer and some of you think that's great. Bit sad truth be told.

Shame if you miss out on a big home pay day and a great day out (LUFC welcomes away fans contrary to usual guff) - still you can laugh at our demise as you sit on the marina and sup yer continental lagers.

Actually I don't wish any club to fold and I do have genuine sympathy with genuine Leeds fans BUT I have no time for people like Bates who try to get away with paying 8p in the £ whilst the tax man expects £1 in the £ from me and if I don't pay it he sends in the bailiffs. The lack of transparency in the deal with the major creditors being located in Carribean domicile (again for tax reasons no doubt) swamping the voting rights of smaller creditors again stinks. Bates has the finances to pay much more than 8 p in the £ and had already promised money to Wise for transfers - so why can't that money go to creditors? Bates has tried to screw the taxman and the taxman has bitten back. The taxman is quite entitled to act within the best interests of the state and get the best deal available. The taxman, just like you claim Leeds United are doing, is operating within the administration law. The courts will decide the rights and wrongs of the case. So I see no problem in the taxman acting this way. Indeed I applaud it. What it will mean is that Bates will have to dig deeper and pay off more of his debts or sell the club to others who I believe probably have the best interests of the club and fans at heart. I very much doubt the club will go to the wall. If it does it will be Bates' decision.

Don't forget that this is the same Bates and Leeds United who were greedy enough to cut off the flow of money down through the football structure when the Premiership was formed.

My point, which goes unanswered, is that the taxman has had more than he might expect from LUFC already due to our largesse (stupidity), that tax avoidance is rife (from the man in the street to big business) and that West Hm (allegedly fined £5 million) have been given a multi million £ windfall as punishent for out and out cheating.

By the way - the pitch invasion (which should never happened and I do not seek to justify) started because some folk thought the game was over. Some others decided to face down the Ipswich fans - disgraceful of course but it was nothing compared to the scouse/manc stuff this season. And their punishment was . . . . well who would want to punish the (so called) biggest club in the world and the (so called) club with the most knowledgeable /best/welcoming fans in the world.

It may sound like self pity but kicking Leeds has been goin' on for 40 odd years to my personal knowledge. As for the trickle down effect - maybe we did cut off the lifeline (I don't know) but again it doesn't mean ordinary fans agreed - cos we don't and it is only we, the fans, who suffer.

All we want is to watch football - if you pop into rivals where I normally post you will find there are no billy big shots, just normal blokes/women who want to watch football and are really looking forward to our first season in Div 1. I doubt I'll get a ticket for your place - I have a home season ticket but not an away season ticket and 900+ will probably go before I get a shout. We shall see. I have family in Stockport so maybe they'll get tickets in your end and I can sit quietly with them.

'I have family in Stockport so maybe they'll get tickets in your end and I can sit quietly with them.'

STOCKTON

Does that mean you will get a ticket like?

The point is that the taxman does think he can get more. By pressing Bates he got form 1p to 8p. I don't know where the deal will be struck but it will have to be higher than 8p. There is money and assets at Leeds - in which account/company I don't know. At the end of the day its Bates versus the Inalnd Revenue and the fans are sadly a low priority. As a taxpayer I want the best settlement available.

As for the West Ham situation I totally agree but then I would never argue that the FA/FL have any sense of justice or fairness. We have had our fair share of unfair judgements from the powers that be. Last season we were frustrated by a wage cap ruling which meant that we were unable to bring in new players yet we are one of the best run small clubs in the country whilst less well run and less transparent clubs carried on without censure.

I hope you can gauge my argument is not with the fans of Leeds but with the likes of Bates. As Mongo famously said in Blazing Saddles "Mongo only pawn in game of life".

So that's okay then is it? A simple misunderstanding. Does the law on going on the pitch change when the referee has blown his whistle?

They should make the dirty gets start the season on -25 points and restrict the attendance in the home stands to 5,000

Surely all the "extra tax" the tax man got from the over the top transfer fees, is the £7.7million they are chasing now. If you'd paid those taxes you wouldn't be in this mess. The tax man is well within his rights to get the best deal he can.

Didn't see the Leeds fans moaning when they were in the champions league, but now it's all gone wrong, they're wringing their hands and crying why me.

It's life, you take the rough with the smooth, be careful whose toes you tread on, on the way up, they might just be connected to arse you have to kiss on the way back down springs to mind.

You've had your years of strutting around , now you have to take it on the chin that you ain't all that anymore.

Your club will not go out of business, there is far too much money to be made from a successful Leeds Utd.

But don't come crying to us about how unfair it is to have to go through this, and it's only the fans who suffer, we know we've been there. Where were you then?

Lo and behold another group has come forward that will offer a better deal than the Bates one

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6271226.stm

I don't want to see any club fold but I have much more sympathy for the fans of Wimbledon - where the money men sold the franchise against League rules, or indeed Scarborough or Brentford.

On the beeb story it states

"Mr Bates has already warned that the cost of the legal action could force the club into liquidation. "

Oh diddums!

You swim with piranhas when nobody ever told you about piranhas, that's really bad luck.
You swim with piranhas when piranhas are the talk of the town, you had it coming.

How Sheffield Wednesday must be happy they warded that man off three years ago.

"They should make the dirty gets start the season on -25 points and restrict the attendance in the home stands to 5,000

You've had your years of strutting around , now you have to take it on the chin that you ain't all that anymore."

"Mr Bates has already warned that the cost of the legal action could force the club into liquidation. Oh diddums! "

And it was all going so well and then in come the 'never mind rational thought let's have some emotion' guys.

No one I know was struttin', no one I know is doing anything but taking it on the chin. Everyone I know is looking forward to Div 1 although many fear we might never get there. That's not moanin' that's just worry.

I make no attempt to justify the pitch invasion - it was wrong. Barnsley fans had fun on the pitch when we went to their place this year - throw 'em out of the league/deduct points. It happens, move on.

Even you emotional guys are surely looking forward to our visit to your place - be a shame to miss out if the worst happens. Still you'll be able to visit the high moral ground on that free Saturday.

Our time in the championship was great and I expect our time in Div 1 to be just the same. Winning games and scoring goals is just as exciting in any league. Don't miss the prem but do miss full houses at ER (an awesome place when it's bouncing) and I do miss european nights which are special.

Prem was a bad move for football - agreed - a great move for the best players. Glad we were in it when it happened but don't think I realised at the time just how big the divide would become. Not sure I've ever agreed with it - not sure I even thought about it at the time. One thing's for sure (and LUFC no different to any other club on this) those that turn up at ER now are true fans which is great.

Hope to see some of you in the Peacock garden before the match when you come calling. I'll be the old guy hunched over me beer and dreaming of being 'God's Footballer'!

Mr Leeds fan, just for clarity my comment about starting on minus 25 points and restricted crowds was very much tongue in cheek. There should be some sort of punishment for delaying the game like they (you?) did but obviously not THAT severe!

5, 6,7, 8 probably time to end the debate - punishment expected at some point jtb

all the clubs in division 1 resigned from the Football League in 91/92 season - the three being relegated at the end of that season sharp changed their minds when they realised they had nowhere to play, and that they weren't going to be allowed to stay up in the new Premier League!!!!!! Notts County were one of those clubs believe it or not.
Sheff Wed, Forest and Leeds are just three long-standing top flight clubs to come a cropper - because they never actually believed at any stage they would be one of the three clubs relegated from the Prem in any given season (preposterous idea but most definitely true). It is very hard to empathise with clubs who basically trod on clubs like ours. The likes of Forest, Wednesday, Leeds etc will always get back into the Championship because of big home crowds and ability to generate more cash ( not to mention bias from refs/linesmen etc and get 75% of contentious decisions along the way), but at least I hope the majority of their fans will now appreciate what ALL football clubs mean to ALL fans.

The Court has set a date for the full hearing of the taxman's case against the proposed CVA - 3 September. Leeds will have to talk to KPMG to see if they can start the season. Of course the matter can be resolved by agreement between Bates and the taxman at any time.

"not to mention bias from refs/linesmen etc and get 75% of contentious decisions along the way"

Pickin on the wrong club here splod - we can produce empirical evidence to prove that LUFC most sinned against club in the history of football. By the way LUFC is up for sale to the highest bidder. Fancy a whip round?

Picking on the wrong splod here as I think you're quoting Mr Parmo

Have the FL reached a decision on the penalty for the pitch invasion yet? I had a look at the FL disciplinary site but its full of the censure for Danny Wilson for being shoulted at by the Stockport no 2 last March. Thet keep on picking on us cos we're so small. Genuine question because I couldn't find a mention of the incident.

Ive always hated Leeds with a vengance,probably cos they always seemed to dick my beloved Man City during the 70s,but they dicked everybody around that time.
I wish divsion 1 was still called the 3rd Division just to rub in how far they have fallen.

Fans who hate leeds always welcome - plays to our strengths and is an acknowledgement of our legendary status (cue claims of arrogance). Next step is usually to raise the spectre of brown envelopes and away days in Bournemouth. It's all very predictable - just like prog rock really and the inevitability of a frannie lee penalty award.

Have heard nothing about any punishment for our end of season picnic splod (apologies for earlier confused identity) but it will come. Mindst, don't you think we've enough on our plates just now?

Prog rock is anything but predictable.

it's easy to generalise about things though, isn't it? In the same way I generalised about big clubs in a League of smaller clubs. However I stand by what I said, because it's what I know through my own experiences of life.
I love loads of prog rock bands, but others generalised about their perception of its lack of predictability. My opinion is that they haven't heard even 2% of it.

Leeds are legendary - that team of the early mid 70s was the bomb - won fook all really like they should have done - but what a great side - bite, tenacity, flair - reminds me of us now - and we've nowt as well....

i follow leeds as a second team but its a second team and it's pools i want to see winning when we play - however they look fooked - if they dont get a buyer by tuesday i think - the HM C&E will be sending in the boys - if they do survive we can rest assured that they'll be little threat for a while as they wont be able to sign anyone for a while and we'll have to face the mighty kandol - if he still there

Have to agree katcha - brought up on Revie's Leeds. (2 bob a game in the kids pen). You had to be there. LUFC is a team defined more by the trophies we lost than those we won - sad but true - and olay football!.

Strange fact for leeds haters - LUFC have played more european games than all but scousers/mancs/gooners. Still a lot of interest in the mighty whites on the continent.

Strange fact number two - according to brazilian coach in 72 (finest international side ever?) - only johnny giles whould make the brazilian squad. Best player we ever had (other than the gentle giant). LUFC defined by bremner (heart and soul) but johnny was in a league of his own.

Ps. Having seen Principle Edwards Magic Theatre and Van Der Graaf Generator amongst others I feel well qualified to discuss the finer points of prog- can claim to have 'Seen All Good People'.

top post john, im sick of fecking hearing about leeds... getting as boring as duffy-gate

How's yer pre season goin? Good start in Ireland tonight for the champions of europe - usual massive following despite our difficulties.