Can I just say…. Fuck ‘em!!

With you all the way.

Can I second that.

Funny you mention this as someone on TV this morning mentioned the Warsaw Jewish ghetto uprising in 1943…7,000 were killed by SS units and a further 49,000 deported to death camps by the SS.
Might explain their survival attitude.

Who exactly?

Pathetic

yeh cant agree with this--Israel has a right to defend themselves and am sure Hamas are using human shields but that doesn't mean you just bomb the shit out of everything---am sure
Palestinian kids have no advanced political views or agency on the situation and it's a tragedy how many of them aren't going to get a chance to grow up.

In what hostage situation have you ever seen that the solution is just kill everyone including hostages and bystanders as long as we get the bad guys

Not a cut and dried situation but considering the abhorrent events of 7th October and the frequent rocket attacks on Israel going on for years, Israel has no choice but to try and destroy Hamas who take a delight in hiding behind civilians and build miliatry infrastructure under hospitals and schools in order to maximize the casualties of the people they claim to represent. Hamas are not interested in land or politics, they want nothing less than the destruction of Israel and all its citzens. Hamas have already said October 7th will be repeated again and again. So what is Israel supposed to do? Just fight them a bit and go home again? Not really an option in my view. They must destroy Hamas whatever the cost. As someone said: If Israel was to lay down its weapons there would be another holocaust. If Hamas was to lay down its weapons nothing would happen. I am not Jewish but I back Israel all the way.

Fact is, Hamas have publicly stated they want all Jews driven out of Israel…. not much room for negotiation there.

only my opinion but people confuse Hamas and Palestine as the same thing--a lot of shit has gone on down the years on both sides--but I think the human shield thing is a false argument---I dont see its ever really ok to kill thousands of kids because a bunch of bounders are using them as human shields--I havent heard that being seen as a viable option in any other situation---be the equivalent of flattening half of Boston after the marathon bombing as the 'bad guys' were hiding out there.

I used to be the other way (ie fairly hardline) but not sure if its being fed bullsght for so many years from those in charge or the advent of cell phone videas etc making this stuff harder to deny but you cant just go round droning and killing civillians left and right, is also self defeating--imagine if it was your family accidentally killed--you wouldnt give a shiny one that it was due to arseholes being in your neighborhood--you woudl dedicate the rest of your life to getting back at the people who killed them

anyway just my opinion which has changed down the years--appreciate its a hard situation I wouldnt pretend to know eveything about and other people might think differently

Palestinians are just people. Hamas are people with a nasty agenda. So this thread would make sense if the title was Hamas. As it is - with Palestine as the title - it doesn't belong on a football forum.

Of course the key difference is intent and what you are inclined to believe. As we all know on Oct 7th, Hamas deliberately set out to murder and brutalize Israli civilians including, women children and babies. Approx 1400 were killed and around 200 were taken hostage. What should Israel do? Is nothing an option because they dont want to hurt innocent Palestinians? The Israelis chose to attack Hamas with the idea of destroying them once and for all and unfortunately innocent Palestinians have been killed although they were not targetted(unlike the Hamas assault). As strange sort of sick irony Hamas complain that innocents are being killed in war they started. Fucking outrageous in my view, yet the liberal lefties are happy to join in this complaint, conveniently forgetting about the reason for the deaths of these innocent Palestinians. We know Hamas are not interested in a negotiated settlement because they simply want the destruction of the Jewish state. What are the Israelis supposed to do?

The Palestinians voted Hamas into power. There have been a number of issues discussed on here which are not football related.

Really didn’t know 6 and 7 year olds get to vote in Palestine
Also think the intent thing is a cop out , they know when they are bombing the way they are that they are killing thousands of civilians.

As I said if someone murdered your family by bombing them because they knew someone nasty lived next door I doubt it would make you feel any better than someone targeting them at random


Interestingly…The argument around some people voted for them so they are all fair game was used by Bin Laden and co in 9/11

Till Hamas are sorted or disbanded this will be an open sore…..Hamas are the only people who can end this sordid saga.

Don't know how many Hamas people there are, but there's 2.2m Palestinians in Gaza, all being caught up in the war. My guess is that the majority of those 2.2m who had nothing to do with Hamas and just got on with their lives in Gaza will now hate all Israelis with a passion. Most likely spawning a new anti Israel organisation which will be larger than Hamas.
Wiping out Hamas will achieve nothing long term, would imagine the UN will need to establish a peace keeping force when / if it quietens down.

Some right sick bastards on here.

since i was a kid the media has always made out that israel as a state are the good guys and the rest of the arab world are the villains. there are rights and wrongs on both sides but britain for over 100 years have not helped the situation right from WW1 days. Surely a time has to happen where the citezens of israel need to forget about the holocaust and the millions murdered and look forewards rather than backwards to gain support from the rest of the world. its not the only country in the world that has suffered from outside interferance or their own rulers in numerous murders.

I think some people want to look at history, particularly around 1947/48 and the effect the U.K. & United Nations had.

At the time Palestine had 94% of land and 67% of the population and following WW2 55% of land was given to Israel(Jewish) with 42% to Palestine(Arabs) whilst the balance of 3% around Jerusalem was under international control.

Between 1948/49 more than 500 Palestinian villages were destroyed by the Zionist movement who now had 78% of the land leaving Palestine with 22%.

Without going too further I think the Palestinians have more than a fair share of grievances?

In 1948 the U.K. wanted out of the place as British forces were involved in a guerilla war waged by the Israeli’s and the Royal Navy was blockading the place to prevent more Jewish refugees from Europe arriving.
My dad was there and glad to see the back of it.

So who was fighting then - the Jews - like they are doing now!

hamas are regarded in the west as a terrorist organisation. in the post war world so were the stern gang in israel who behaved in a similar way with similar aims and eventually on independance had a number of its members running the country including a future PM. do not know how they were discribed at the time but knowing the western world they,d be freedom fighters. a lot depend on the side you support in the name they are given.

I think it’s disgusting what is happening. What happened on October 7th was disgusting and what is happening now is just the same.
If Israel really want to get rid of Hamas and protect civilians at the same time they’d send in special forces to root them out.
And if the governments of the Uk and the USA and any other country that are backing Netanyahu really wanted to help, they’d send their special forces over there to help them too.
Not wipe out many innocent women, men and children on a daily basis.

The thing is, after we shipped out, the surrounding Arab countries, Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc all invaded at the same time to get rid of them and they got their arses kicked…and have been ever since…countries like Egypt and Jordan have come to terms with it.
Also why is the border with Egypt closed as is the Saudi’s too….Jordan evicted all their Palestinian refugees after an attempted coup by them…it’s a very complex minefield that will take some sorting.

Israel want rid of Hamas at any cost, if innocent civilians get caught up they don't give a shot. It's no longer about defending themselves, it's simple revenge - an eye for an eye except they want heads for an eye.
World leaders should be pushing for an end to civilian deaths, attacking hospitals and schools is nothing short of criminal by any humanitarian standards.

It is not about the past or Britain or Israel being good or bad. Lets put it this way. Suppose country X was suddenly attacked by country Y and 1400 civilians were brutally murdered. Should country X just take it on the chin? What if country Y had also sworn to never stop attacking X till it was destroyed together with all its people? Should country X laugh it off?

Israel has had Hamas rockets fired at its population for many years. The October 7th attack represented a serious escalation of Hamas's murderous intent. In other words there is no escaping te fact that Hamas will continue to organize to attack Israel by any means it can. Why should Israel just have to accept this? Particularly taking into account the evil atrocities carried out that day?

thats totally true, but if everything stopped today it will start again in the near future with hamas gone but someone else taking its place re named. in football terms its like getting celtic and rangers fans to get on at a game and have ibrox or celtic park not having any segregation.

So if you were the Israeli leader, how would you deal with an enemy who had sworn to destroy you, your country and all your people and who had backed up this threat by suddenly attacking and murdering 1400 of your citizens? Would you do nothing in case you hurt some Palestionian civilians?

You would send special forces in. The United Nations has repeatedly called for a ceasefire.
If you think killing innocent people everyday is going to make it better and that it’s going to totally wipe out Hamas then you’re seriously deluded.

The Middle East is/has always been a minefield, a toxic cocktail of religion and race…..most outrages over the past 50 years have originated there, I don’t think there is an answer to the problems across the region, war is a drug there.

So you would send special forces in? I presume you have military knowledge as well as a grasp of the geography of the area? If it was a simple as that, do you think the Israelis might have done that already and sorted the problem? After all why would they want to be involved in a prolonged fight when they could deal with the problem as easily as you imply? Ths is only a guess but I think the Israelis will already have their special forces in there and indeed every military resource they possess in order to eradicate this genocidal death cult who have had years to build a network of tunnels and caves underneath hospitals and schools.

If a ceasefire is called what do you think Hamas would do?
A) evacuate civilans out of harms way and see to their well-being?
B) resupply their "soldiers" and rebuild their defences which involves plenty of civilians, particularly children as "human shields".

I dont consider myself deluded but I ask the question....what else can Israel do when faced with this existential threat?

Yes it seems highly likely that if Hamas is finally destroyed, they would be replaced by other fanatics pretty damn quick. I guess a way of stopping this would be a UN peace keeping force to be stationed for as long as necessary. I bet the Israelis would be happy to see this, but who knows, the situation is as volatile as can be.

If they have their special forces in then why drop multiple bombs on hospitals and schools?
It’s debatable that they’re killing Hamas, it’s not debatable that they are killing innocent people.

The history of this region is indeed multi faceted and complex and it is evident that the Palestinians have had a rough deal but the past cannot be changed and what is of importance is the here and now, namely a terrible war deliberately instigated by Hamas who ruthlessly exploit the sympathy of the liberal democracies.

How do you know details of the precise military situation? Hamas who control the media will insist the Israeli's are carepet bombing and deliberatly killing babies. Israel will say they need to target areas where they believe Hamas have military facilities in order to prepare for ground troops to go in? Somewhere there is the the truth but you have decided who you believe. I dont claim military expertise but I understand it is impossible to win a war by air power alone so there will be Israeli ground forces involved and I guess the Israelis will be bombing certain areas to prepare for the troops to go in as I said above.

Do you seriously believe that Israel are not bothered about Hamas, they just want to kill civilian babies? Killing babies wont stop Hamas will it? But Hamas claiming Israel is only killing babies might force Israel to stop attacking Hamas due to the force of liberal opinion. By the way it has been proved that hospitals and schools are precisely where Hamas hide their military infrastructure.

I don’t know and neither do you. Regarding the tunnels underneath hospitals that’s debatable as well. In fact everything is debatable because the majority of the information coming out is from the right wing press.
What isn’t debatable is the people that are being killed and if you think that’s justified in believing that it “might” remove Hamas then I feel sorry for you.

I dont believe Israel is targetting civilians----I just think not killing them isnt important enough for them to make a huge effort to stop---which itself is pretty damning

I dont need your sympathy, I am quite alright. I say again for the umpteenth time, Israel has no choice, Hamas cannot be negotiated with they must be eradicated and in doing so innocents will be killed: this is what happens in all wars. This particular war was started on Oct 7th when Hamas "fighters", killed, tortured, raped and burned 1400 innocent jewish civilians. They were not killed accidently during a military engagement they were deliberately attacked with the utmost savagery. You'll notice the mainstream media have forgotten about this. I dont think the BBC is right wing, lol, they were the ones who refused to call Hamas terrorists. They were the ones who said the explosion in the grounds of a hospital must have been Israeli when it later turned out to br a Hamas rocket that had misfired.

Believe what you want to believe. In my opinion you think to eradicate Hamas it’s justifiable to kill children then shame on you.

"Pretty damning". The Israelis are damned whatever they do. If they do nothing they will continue to be attacked by an enemy who wants nothing less than the destruction of the Israeli state and the death of all its citizens. When they attack Hamas, who openly boast they use civilians as human shields, they are accused of targetting innocent people when it is impossible not to kill innocents due to Hamas's disgraceful tactics.

Shame on you for believing an evil death cult should be protected from harm because it literally hides behind children. Shame on you.

I can't think of one hostage situation (and thats what these 'human shields' are) in the Western world where the solution is blow up everything and kill the hostages as well as long as we get the bad guys......Dog Day Afternoon would have been a 5 minute fillum in Israel !

Yes its reprehensible what Hamas did and are doing....and I used to be more hardline on the response--but IMO you cant just treat 1000s of people as collateral damage

With respect , even taking away moral disagreements this doesnt make logical sense to me---the families of the innocent people killed will obviously want revenge/become radicalized etc...so is the next logical step to kill all of them too, and then their friends and relatives and so on?--When does it end--when there are no Palestinians left .... there's a name for that.

Nowt to do with hostages. You place military infrastructure underneath a hospital. The idea is that the Israli's wont attack it because of Western liberal opinion, thus your military is safe. If the hospital is attacked you can manioulate Western liberal opinion. The shield are not hostages they are the patients, Doctors and nurses in the hospital. Not clear if they are aware of the presence of Hamas underneath them but I am sure Hamas dont care either way.

It is all very well for us in our safe environment to pass judgement on Israel but I suspect if we lived there our views might be different. The only way Israel can deal with the situation is to attack an enemy who are going out of their way to ensure as many innocents are killed as possible. I dont think it gets more evil than that.

"You cant just treat 1000s of people as collateral damage"? So what would you do?

Israel cant do anything else apart from sit on their hands and allow Hamas to continue to attack them. Israel is not deliberately killing Palestinans, what would be the point? As you rightly say it would only serve to radicalize more Palestenians, so why would they do it if there wasa way to avoid it? There is no way to avoid it because Hamas want lots of dead civilians so they can play the victim when they are responsible for this bloodbath.

Agree no easy solutions-especially given the mistakes of the past, and agree what is theoretical for us is real life for them.

That being said a more targeted approach is needed--that involves targeting Hamas and also reaching out to the civillian population and not treating them like crap---There is a legitimate grievance the Palestinians have even before the decades of thoughtless targeting (I am not saying they are 100% in the right just that both sides have a claim to the land)

I think Israel has taken an 'enough is enough' approach which you can have sympathy with in theory ....but when that approach means killing potentially 100s of thousands (and certainly 10s of thousands) of innocent people in practice it is clearly not acceptable no matter what was done to you by people who happen to live near/look like the people you are killing

Ever wonder why Egypt, Saudi and Jordan won’t entertain Palestinians…?
I think what caused all this was the west…Blair and Cameron joining up with the the Yanks to make the Middle East just like us….fast food, shopping malls and debt.

Certainly agree that over 75 years there have been all kinds of ups and downs and the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance but what Hamas is doing is not going to change that. No one knows for sure but why wouldnt Israel carefully target only Hamas "fighters" if this was possible? It would most certainly be in their own interests and would avoid a lot of adverse publicity. Also worth considering that it is in the best interest of Hamas to inflate civilian casualties and the figures they give are unquestioned by the Western media. They could be 100% accurate but in the absence of independent verification we just dont know. I respect your opinion Mr Loyal but I will never agree with it . Yet again I ask the question: What else can Israel do apart from nothing?