Were they right or wrong?

Do they have a right to expect someone else to pay for their education? After all, they go to university to get a degree in order to get a better, and usually better paid job.

Come to think of it, I'm going to set a business up producing 'Socialist Worker' placards. They do seem to buy a lot of them.

They are the seed corn of our country. Hopefully they will go on to create the wealth that provides pensions for the elderly and funds the likes of the NHS, along with jobs and security for the less brainy of our nation.
Not all of them promote the right image, I'll concede that.

The alternative is only provide education to those that can afford it and see where that gets us.

The rest of the World educates it's future and it's them who our kids have to compete with.

Having said that there is no room for violent behaviour within their protest.

Personally I think we should reintroduce means tested grants up say 10k and require the student to pay back an amount once they are earning over 30k. I think the principle of paying it back is sound.

but without the violence it wouldnt have made the news.

I want to see more of this.

i understood that if a graduate got a job paying £30k, they only pay back something like £9 a week. doesn't sound like a lot.

it also struck me that all these headlines claiming tuition fees are being trebled glossed over the fact the £9k is the absolute upper limit that universities can charge

then i listened to claire solomon, the NUS president at the University of London on 5Live this morning defending the violence and smugly talking over everyone ringing in to oppose her views and i suddenly developed a pathological hatred for her and everything she stands for, the patronising, home counties, pseudo-socialist, professionally agitating bitch.

Agree fully. I was round a mates tonight who I went to Uni with and I said that people who did courses like mine should be charged more and it would probably put people off like myself who went to uni for the wrong reasons.

Like your player ratings, your rates are very innacurate.

Someone on 30k would expect to pay back over a ton a month.

Fully concurring with the sniggering hound.

The whole system is a piss take its designed to get as many students into uni so figures look as theres all these students getting these epic degrees in arse scratching and afternoon kipping. when at the end they come out with degrees no one really gives a fook about, but its all wonderfull cos everyones got a degree so everyones a winner
i remember one of the first days at uni some lecturer announced to all of us that if we intended to jsut get a degree we might as well not bother as unless we got a first most empoyers couldnt care less we'd have to get a masters or summat else. i left uni 3 years ago i think now and ended up £2500 better off due to the means test no debts or nowt.
i really dont see why we need to have everyone gettin free education at uni, its free till your 18 or left colllege or whatever, surely a scholarship system would be better so it rewards the kids who are clever enough to go but maybe would struggle with the payments.

It appears to me that some are missing the point here. This will only affect middle England, as are most of the punitive measures this government is now imposing on everyone. Middle England will not get an opportunity to send their children to the top Universities like Oxford and Cambridge, as the cost will make it unaffordable, thus leaving these great Universities to the great and the good, much to the delight of tories the world over. They will not be universities for the best performing children, but private clubs for the very wealthy. Second class universities for second class citizens.

I also think you're also missing the point; the effects of the proposal is to remove all state funding for university teaching (not research) for all subjects except for STEM. Why is STEM exempted? Why, because the government believes that a totally free market would result in inefficiencies. For instance, not enough would do physics as it's tough; the government will therefore continue to subsidise teaching in these areas so that full fees do not need to be charged, making them more attractive. The subtext here is that universities' only role is now an economic one; to prepare the workers of the future. Knowledge for it's own sake, especially if it's cultural, is no longer valued. This is a mistake; 'blue skies' thinking across all academic disciplines has lead to some major innovations and discoveries. Knowledge for it's own sake enhances our culture, and we are, after all, cultural beings as opposed to simple economic, rational, utility calculating. machines. If we weren't, who'd spend close to 20 snodgers ((C) Mutley) watching Pools?

It's very depressing, especially as there seems to be nothing any of us can do to stop the process. I'm hoping that the bairn will eventually emigrate, when she finishes her degree, to a country where life and evolution are still happening.

Are you saying people can only think or have their thirst for knowledge sated under the auspices of a university...? I would suggest that most of the things that actually changed our lives were by people who had never seen a university.
As a country we need to produce things to pay our way in the world, the great and the good told us we didn't need industry, all we needed was the banks to guarantee our lifestyle and the country could survive on burger flipping, service industries and box tickers in non jobs ....well it didn't work out like that exactly.
Do you really believe the working man who has never been to Uni or got a degree to be some sort of uncomprehending automaton or a lesser soul for not having the privilege of having their eyes opened ?. There really is more to life than that.

Snowy, like you I read up on things that interest me in my own time, but doing university is a different ball-game. For one thing, there's the opportunity to spend 3 years studying your subject without any other real commitments on your time. There are tutors to work with who are probably experts in their field, and there's a specialist library where you can get hold of just about any relevant book or article there is. It would have taken me 20 years to pick up, by my own reading, what I did in 3 years, and even then I wouldn't have had anyone to discuss what I was reading with, which would have halved the pleasure.
My dad was really bright, but he left school at 14 and didn't have much access to books after that, even tho he was very keen on some subjects and would have loved the chance to study them.
I think the present educational policies are going backwards as far as the working class are concerned. As far as everyone is concerned, in fact, because what's being said is that knowledge for its own sake is valueless, or at least the State doesn't want it. That message is bound to percolate down to school-kids and make them think history, literature, music and the other arts don't matter.

Superb posts by Chipfireball, Garbec and The Fat man for me there. Even Snowy's post is right in its own way. Great stuff.

It was just an excuse for a bunch of lefties to kick off.

Shame on them

My 'University' years were spent in the RAF, meeting and working with a diverse and interesting group of people, from all parts of the UK and beyond. My further education in academic terms was limited to passing the English Language 'O' Level I failed at school, but I did take part in the traditional student pastime of getting drunk several nights a week. Guarding planes all night in the wilds of Scotland, and catching barracuda in Oman, or marching through the streets of Ipswich on Remembrance Day were events I wouldn't have experienced without those years. As a result of those years I feel I'm a more 'rounded' individual than I would have been without them. Despite the disparaging comments about so called lesser degree courses, I think the students will also similarly benefit from their experiences, at whatever level they are able to take part.

Me..? I followed the path laid down for me, Dad decided my wish to go to Art College was a waste of time and I reluctantly got an apprenticeship. Five years of day release and night classes and the tedious joys of electronics ... and yes, I understand fully the benefits of and workings of Uni. Let's be honest, what's university preparing you for in the first place? ... to be part of the system. It may well be higher up the scale, but at the end of the day, most students are going to get a degree to get a better job, end of and I doubt most are interested in little more than that and fail to take full advantage of their surroundings. I don't believe you gain some superior insight to life by simply being there that changes you... most of the new Uni's (the former poly's) are degree factories. Once you needed O levels ... the it was A's and now it's a degree ... it's perceived passport to a brighter future.
My point is that it's one option and no guarantee of anything in life. I'm not denying anyone access to it, but it's not the answer to everyone and I get a bit annoyed that as a country we tend to dismiss anyone who doesn't get a degree as a some sort of failure. Happiness, or should that be contentment isn't related to achievement or income.
As for never having the time to do what you want to do, the books to read, it's easy, make the time. I always did.

I don't think the impact of the fee increase will really be felt for a generation or two. It's another example of the widening gap between rich and poor, which will take the country back about 50 years. A university education used to be for the priveleged, and that's exactly what the current government want it to be.

I think the students were right to riot about this, even if they did look like a pack of fannies with their floppy hair and jeans that come down to their knees. More people need to get angry about the way the rich are getting richer, but everyone just seems to be resigned to the cuts and that 'everyone must take a hit'. Perfect propaganda that suits the rich.

I believe that raising the fees will have much more impact than the Poll Tax ever would.

It's such a shame that people's anger is directed towards each other (eg EDL/radical muslims) rather than to those who suck up the vast majority of the wealth for themselves.

Thing that always gets me (vaguely off topic but whatever) is that the same press that bang on about radical Muslims (and burning poppies is fooking rank) are the same rags that go mental on benefit fraud. The last, government, figures I saw claimed for every £1 spent on recovering benefit fraud cash would yield £3. Good effort. HMRC figures claim for every £1 spent on recovering tax evasion claims would yield £60. Total amount of benefit fraudulently claimed, government figures, £1.1 billion. Total amount of tax evaded, HMRC estimates inexcess of £20 billion. Get a grip and go for the big wallonga!!

I went to uni, I enjoyed it but I have never used the qualification I gained there. Looking back though if I had to pay £9000 a year I wouldn't have gone and would have ended up stuck doing not a lot or bumping from job to job like most of my old mates have done.

Instead I got to meet people from all over the world, have learned how to work things out for myself, grew more as a person and socially in the first year than I had in my first 18, learned to ask questions as well as accept what I am told, and also discovered the wonderous beverage that is Sambuca.

I don't believe university education should be totally free, but it should be accessible to all without fear of a financial burden later in life. I also agree with the following said by Chip.



The trouble with a lot of kids in the parts of Hartlepool mentioned above is that they think there is no point because they see little similarity between themselves and the people who are charged with educating them, or the ones that are making decisions. They also see people coping on state handouts and think that they will be alright so learning is irrelevant. Regardless of how clever or wealth kids are they should all be taught to value the free education that they are entitled to until the age of 18, and they also should all be given the chance to spend more time out in the world schools could take them all over the place for not a huge amount of money if they did it right and once kids see that there is something more interesting out there they are likely to go looking for it.

Anyway sorry for the long ramblings, I shoud go and start a thread about tits.

Couldnt agree more. And there are even some on here, from little old Hartlepool, who seem happy to take their share of the pain. Like we have ever had anything else?

Can someone answer me these? Just who are we in debt to? And what if we just decided we wouldnt pay this debt?

I keep hearing people say that we must pay back this debt, reduce the deficit etc, but to who? If we are£1 trillion in debt, there are some very rich fookers out there, laughing at everyone elses misery. Why not just tell them to fuck off?

I got stuck on the London train with a bunch of them coming back from London and they didn't care about the fees they just wanted to mince around London with their placards and their faces pained. If they were that skint then they couldn't have afforded the f*cking train fare!

They need to cap the debt at a decent level and pay back when people earn over about £40k. If UK people stop going to University then they will just fill up with overseas students and whats the f*cking point of that?

It's all being felt already, by parents, Mr PiN.
I naively thought that at least the student loans would cover living expenses...but they don't at all. They cover food and books and that's about it. We're paying thousands a year in rent and fuel bills for our daughter. She did her best to find a part-time job, but there weren't any that would fit in with lectures. That's on top of the thousands she's going to owe herself at the end of the course.
It wouldn't have been so bad if there's been adequate warning about what was going to happen, so that parents could have budgetted and saved up. As it is, I don't see how people with more than one child manage at all.

Snowy, at the time we were student age, you could have got a grant to go to Art College? My parents contributed zilch to my degree because I worked for a few years before I went to Uni and therefore my grant was based in my earnings, not theirs.
(Besides you could still do the Art College now....courses are full of middle aged students these days.)
University really isn't training people to be part of a system. What would the system be? Few people graduate and become members of the establishment.
I didn't look on Uni as anything else but the chance to spend time learning what I wanted, and yes it did change me for the better. Not to say that other choices might not have done the same thing, but there aren't so many other choices available for a working class kid.

Life is a series of forks in the road, I always took what seemed the best option at the time. As for education, I once came across a deserted boiler room with titles of all Shakespeares works written on it... I asked who had done it and was told the boilermakers were having a discussion about it and decided to make a list. Then I saw things in a different light.

I really believe that growing up in Hartlepool is enough education in itself, provided your horizons don't stop at the A689.

I consider myself incredibly lucky to have a mixture of 'school of hard knocks' (Brierton ) and University. I just hope that the internet will broaden the minds of the next generation of Hartlepudlians into striving to fulfil their potential.

Or at least inspire them to go to London and show them how to cause criminal damage properly.

University of life, School of Hard Knocks and the Nursery of having the shiite knocked out of you.
Never did me any harm .... as thay say.

I went to Uni in Liverpool for my under grad degree and honestly did nothing in the first year but drink and lay about. Realised in my second and third year had to work and came out with my degree.

I didnt have to pay any tuition fee's as my dad is disabled and therefore didnt have the income required, I did however have to get a loan and came out with about 13k worth of debt.

My second degree I got a bursary and got paid £50 quid a week to attend my course as it was sponsered by the Forensic Science Service.

I count myself very lucky going to Uni at this time as I would have had to seriously consider going if these current proposals were in place. This shouldnt be the case as I know people on my course who didnt get a job after uni and doing nothing at all to do with their degree.

I've got a confession to make here, I do have a degree from the University of Zeebrugge in 'Wing Markings of North East Belgian Moths (1934-6)' and went back to do Tin Tin Studies.... waste of time.

What a plonker.

I spent three years developing a serious alcohol habit and crammed at the end for a few weeks to get my degree.

I also did that during my master degree which was a lot easier than my under grad. I went to a lecture on Monday wrote an essay by Wednesday then had 5 nights and 4 days getting hammered smoking to much and trying to pull the young freshers, happy days.

So let's get this straight. You went to get hammered, laid and oops ... must get a degree as well. ...... and not to soak up the rich cultural montage of your surroundings, immersing yourself in the ambient glow of knowledge on tap.
I favour the first option as the option of choice for 99% of students.

Yeah, Ripper, we can tell>

In all seriousness though Ms G, degree's aren't as difficult as they're made out to be by a lot of people who have them. I didn't even reckon my Masters to be overly difficult, the trickiest thing about it was finding the time to fit the work in as I did it whilst working full time.

Everyone I have met who went to university went to have a great time but with the goal of getting a degree at the end. I do think they need to cut down on the pointless courses on offer, some of the ones that can be got are just foolish.

Honselty if I hadnt ran out of money in the first year and had to get a job I think my attendance levels would have been low enough to kick me off the course.

I got 42% in my first year 2% enought to allow me to go into the second year, the beauty of the first year is it doenst go on your record and if you submit all your work to a basic standard your let through if you pass the exams. My advise to anyone going to Uni is just get hammered all year and revise for the exams to scrape into the second year. Not brillant advise but worked for me

Totally agree Ripper my Masters was a lot easier than my under grad, I also finished my disertation in the summer in two months including my lecturer presentation. I went to the home office worked 10-3 every week day and wrote it up every night, returned back to uni were people hadent even started writing it up so basically I have 3 months left of doing bugger all.

I didn't say degrees were difficult exactly...some bits of mine were, some weren't. The mind-changing bit was it challenged me to think.
If you spent 2 and a half years getting plastered, and then just did enough to get a piece of paper, then I don't understand why...but, whatever floats your boat.

Sounds as though I had to work quite a bit harder than some here! Apart from constant essays, I had to produce at least 7 or 8 seminar papers a term. That meant quite a bit of research and then arguing your case with other students/your tutor after you'd read your paper out. Just reading up on a subject doesn't compare...believe me, I've done both.

I also had to do that doing biology and forensic science I had to do essay after essay sometimes 3-4 a week at the end of my degree and even had to do a mock court case assesment grilled by the law students. I agree reading up on a subject isnt learning it you need to be able to argue and construct why you believe it to be correct based on your own ideas and critising others work.

Sorry Snowy, but that's a pretty twisted meaning of my words; I commented on the overall scheme and what it means for Universities. In no way does this mean that I think they're the total depository of culture. If I thought this, why would I offer football as an alternative the totalising commodification of life we see in neo-liberalism? The Government, in it's proposals, seems to think that if we can't put a pound sign on it, it's not worthwhile. That's a depressing view of life.

Three points here...
Firstly, ALL governments despite what they would have us believe, are obsessed with making money, there are no exceptions. Politicians will always be there when they need you.
Secondly, football is not culture, it's tribal.
Finally, do not appear from nowhere and start having debates, it's most disconcerting.