Is this the most cynical strike in history?

Potentially, yes. I don't see how they can expect to get any sort of public support by choosing these dates. I just hope that it doesn't lead to a serious injury or fatality.

doesnt matter what date they strike,if someone died on the day they were doin it the government spin machine would love it.
at the end of the day pay them a decent wage for the excellent job they do and they wouldnt need to strike.

The basic annual salaries for Firefighters in the UK from 1st July 2009 are as follows:

Trainee - £21,157 (£9.66 an hour; overtime rate £14.49 )

Development - £22,038 (£10.06 an hour; overtime rate £15.09 )

Competent - £28,199 (£12.88 an hour; overtime rate £19.32 )

Not bad at all !!!

Should I reply to this. And give a bias reply.

You mention the strike but fail to mention 3 vehicles being driven at high speed in to picketing fire-fighters.

Vehicles driven at speed into three FBU pickets
Two strikebreakers arrested
Strikebreaking contractors refuse first aid equipment to the injured

Yesterday, three members of the Fire Brigades Union (FBU) were hit and hurt by speeding vehicles driven by strikebreakers.
A Croydon firefighter was hit by a speeding car driven by a non-union manager at Croydon fire station.

A fire engine returned from an incident and drove into the fire station, its crew refusing to wind down their windows and talk to the pickets. But at least it drove slowly, at the brigade maximum of five mph, so that the pickets could get out of the way before they were mown down.

“It was followed by a car driven by the officers, and as the pickets tried to talk to the driver of the car, it accelerated suddenly and one of the striking firefighters was thrown up and into the windscreen, then several feet in front of the car.

“Picketing fire-fighters asked AssetCo employees who had control of the fire station for the first aid kit and some blankets, but they would not give them despite the obviously serious nature of the injuries.

“An ambulance was called at once, and the ambulance crew asked for an air ambulance. The fire-fighter was not able to move during the 25 minutes between being hit and being taken away in the ambulance.”

The LFB manager was arrested at the scene. It is understood he has injuries to his spleen and spine.

Second, two hours after the strike, Dagenham fire-fighter held his hand up at the side of a road in Southwark, to signal to the crew of a fire engine being returned to Southwark Fire Station that they should stop and speak to him. The fire engine swerved towards him and hit his hand, he suffered a sprained and badly bruised hand.

Third, a fire engine was deliberately driven into a FBU London representative a at Southwark fire station. This happened more than two hours after the strike ended.

Although the strike ended at six, the fire engines did not start coming until about 8 pm. When they did start coming, the permitted eight pickets, in the midst of dozens of police officers, stood in front and asked the drivers to stop while they spoke to them.
The first two fire engines stopped, and waited for the two minutes or so the police allowed the eight pickets to try to talk to them, without winding down their windows.

But the third didn’t stop. It just kept on going. As the pickets fled before it, the fire engine actually picked up speed, hit a picket and then one of the police officers, before the police finally persuaded the driver to stop. By then, the fire-fighter's legs and half his body were underneath the fire engine . If he had been standing an inch or so further left, his legs would have been crushed under the fire engine’s wheels.

FBU pickets asked the driver to reverse, but he would not do so until instructed to do so by the police. The police officer, had a bruised leg.The fire-fighter has injured ribs. He was pulled out and helped to the side of the road.

The fire engine was deliberately driven at the pickets. The driver cannot have felt in any way intimidated. He could see at least 50 police officers who would have protected him, had any violence been offered, which it was not.

After that, the police handled the arrival of the rest of the fire engines very differently. They decided, with great fairness, that they were not going to stop the picketing because a driver had endangered the pickets. So police officers themselves stopped the fire engines, gave the pickets their couple of minutes, then cleared the way for the engines.

Other occasions that wont get mentioned......

1. In Dagenham, after several calls from a block of flats, the private contractors turned up, but did not know how to connect the hose to the fire engine, or where the water hydrants were. Local firefighters saw their problem, and despite being on strike, showed the contractors how to use the equipment. They then entered the building to ensure that no lives were at risk, before leaving the private contractors to cope with any damage to property.

2. In a Hackney block of flats, striking firefighters saw private contractors trying, and failing, to break down an outside door with a sledgehammer. Concerned that there may have been a risk to members of the public they decided to help, and by using the sledgehammer properly, were able quickly to gain entrance and establish that there was no danger to life. Then they told the private contractors to go in and do their job.

The November 5th (bonfire night strikes)

London’s 5,600 firefighters only called their strike action because the London Fire Brigade failed to withdraw the August 11 sacking letters sent to all of them.

The union decided to call its London members out on strike from 10 a.m. on November 5 to 9 a.m. on November 7. They will be out for 47 hours.

The long term safety of Londoners depends on a well-trained, self-confident firefighting force. The chair of the London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority, Councillor Brian Coleman, issued calculated insults and says he’s ‘relaxed’ and sacking all of them. He and the Commissioner, Ron Dobson, want to run the London Fire Brigade as though it were a Victorian mill. They want a frightened and obedient firefighting force.

They had nearly two weeks for the London Fire Brigade to get this right. To show a little respect for the firefighters. Meet their representatives and hammer out a compromise with them.

You mention bonfire night yet they have been on strike previously this year yet has that been in any right wing newspapers or on any news.....??????? The first being on October 23rd. They were even on strike while we were in London for the Dagenham game, did that get any coverage in the press.

And Mutley asked to leave the ground to have a smoke , he was told not possible as gates were PADLOCKED...........and the stewards near to them would have to ring for a key to open them, when he asked innocently what happens if there's a fire, the reply was there's other ways out of the ground. Can you imagine if Mutley had been raving drunk and knew about the fire-fighter's strike what his attitude may have been. Yes he had 1 out of 2 but I won't say which.

Don't be so quick to jump on fire-fighters, I went out on strike in 2002 it was the F****** hardest thing I ever did in the fire service as it meant friends/ family had no adequate cover, they don't do it easily. And even during the strikes of 2002/03 many fire-fighters from around the country broke their own picket lines to go to incidents were life was at risk.

And they have a 3 year freeze on those wages, yes that's right a 3 year freeze not 2 as in the rest of the public service but 3. There raise this year should have come in to effect just after the emergency budget, many other public service workers had already had their's.

They were then informed that they were still having wages froze in line with the rest of the public service for those 2 years mentioned.

Bob when you striked in 2002 a lot of the public supported firefighters to help them get a decent wage. As far as I am aware this strike is about a shift to working hours that many other people in industry already carry out without the world coming to a grinding halt. Given that a lot of people have recently lost their jobs / about to lose their jobs I think the firefighters should just quit whining and crack on.
As for firefighters injuring people including their own- words fail me!

It disgusts me that we have millions unemployed in this country and people still feel it appropriate to walk out on strike just because their union bosses want to argue the toss about a change.

Changes occur in life, most people deal with them, unions are outdated and a total waste of time and hassle.

Every Firefighter that walks away from his job on strike shouldn't have a job to return to, I am sure lots will disagree but I would apply the same thoughts to any industry where workers go on strike.

London Fire Brigade removed 27 fire engines the day before the strike ballot was due in. Removed in case the ballot said yes to a strike, which resulted in 27 fire engines not being available to fire-fighters who were still working as the ballot result was not known. Yes that's right 27 fire engines which is approx one fifth of the number of engines within the London Authority. That is more front line appliances than cover the whole of Cleveland(15 full time,5 part time/retained in Cleveland) Or the equivalent of somewhere in the region of 100-135 front line fire-fighters no longer jumping on fire engines to attend blazes/terror attacks ,chemical incidents etc.

This is not a strike that is simply about shift changes , which the right wing press will have you believe.

Early this morning a gas explosion resulted in this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11671916, not in London used as an example. That resulted in 10-12 fire engines attending(50 fire-fighters)

So I ask two question do you believe London can afford to lose TWICE as many fire engines and fire-fighters that attended this one incident. Because they are unavailable at times. An incident which was caused due to a gas leak, something that can occur anywhere and without the more serious consequences of being terrorist linked.

The second is if fire-fighters don't fight to keep the fire engines and the cover THEY believe the people of their community deserve, Who will ???

Don't think it simply over shifts etc this is about the cover that fire-fighters can give, the less there is the less cover communities have.

Even Cleveland has less fire engines now than it did when I joined. it has something like 200 LESS front line fire fighters over the last 20 years, thats a big cut and means a fire engine takes longer to attend no matter what politicians tell you.

But the firefighters are dealing with the changes.........they're taking action against them.
Or are you suggesting that every suggestion by management to "change" working practises, conditions and pay should just be accepted by the workforce????
I'm just trying to establish a logical conclusion to your argument, cos if we are going to pay off all the public servants who strike, I need to establish how I get a fire put out, how to educate children, how to protect my home, how to get members of my family to hospital who take ill. Ooops there won't be anyone there cos we will have sacked any nurses who take industrial action.
The guy who wrote Utopia was that clever he got himself executed.

Got to go now, as I have a match to get to.

Simple question-

Who would you trust to make a sensible decision about the quality of cover provided by the fire service?

a) Politicians.
b) Firefighters who put their own lives in danger even more than usual if the cover is inadequate.

The FBU is a strong union because the members understand that if they don't look after themselves cuts and political interference will lead to avoidable deaths. Best of luck to them.

And Cleveland Fire Brigade faces an £8.8 Million shortfall under the Comprehensive Spending Review (C.S.R.) that could result in 180 job losses across the brigade many of which will be front line fire-fighters.

So alienlife, they should just accept that and let Cleveland area have less fire appliances, can I suggest the first to go be in the town YOU live in and if it's not in Cleveland when that area comes to cutting fire appliances in the brigade area you live I once more suggest it the town you live in.

You of course will not want the fire-fighters to strike to save your towns fire engine as they shouldn't have a job to come back to. So you can take part in the so called consultation period and then be ignored by politicians and see your fire station closed.

And then have to wait an extra 5-10 minutes for an engine to get to your property.

Your comment is based on nothing and has no substance. But perhaps you believe your town doesn't need fire cover.

And if you live in Hartlepool here's some facts for you

I joined Brigade in 1978 Hartlepool had 104 front line fire-fighters riding 3 fire engines aerial appliances and an emergency tender

When I retired in 2009 it had 60 fire-fighters riding 2 fire engines and an emergency tender.

There is no aerial appliances in Hartlepool so if the hospital has a major fire on the top floor, or any of the other tall building in the town has a fire on the top floor the aerial attending will be dispatched from Middlesbrough. If that appliance is attending an incident in another part of the Brigade area, the appliance will be dispatched from our neighbours down the A66 at DARLINGTON.

All your points make sense bob - but I haven't seen anything to suggest that the firefighters in London are striking over these points - that includes the tree hugging guardian. I've watched a bit of the coverage and have yet to hear the union rep mention anything other than the problems they perceive with going to a 12/12 system- if I've missed these points, apologies

It's about time we got a bit more productivity out of firemen instead of paying them to sleep all night. It's scandalous the amount they get paid to lie in their cot when there are plenty of others jobs they could be cracking on with IMO.

"It's scandalous the amount they get paid to lie in their cot when there are plenty of others jobs they could be cracking on with IMO"

It could be actually worse than that.
During the tall ships the brigade had an appliance based at one of the towns schools just in case they got a shout and it was busy in the town centre.
The firemen did approximately bot all for four days.
To be fair to the lads I think they were bored out of their skin but it did highlight how much spare time they have on their hands.
One of them told me that they had been asked if they would change their shifts to give a better cover for the tall ships, but "they resisted" that offer. When I asked why, he said"cos you have to don't you"

They are only going on strike because they arent allowed to sit watching porn and bum each other all night long

If Fetish hears that they've stopped that he'll be outraged but glad that he retired when he did.

Through no fault of their own, Firemen spend a massive percentage of their time doing bot all.

If you were running a business you wouldn't let your staff sleep through the night, you'd find other adminstrative tasks for them to carry out so you don't have to employ staff during the day to do it.

If I was in charge and told to make cuts to the fire service, I'd knock this sleeping malarky on the head and get them fulfilling admin roles then sack all the admin lot.

So the last 5 posters on this thread don't know what they're talking about.

Tall ships the appliance(s) were placed in what was considered to be better strategic places(by management not the fire-fighters) in case a call came in to somewhere in the town that road closures made it difficult to get to. They were still on duty and being paid. Maybe your house had been on fire and the appliance was delayed , resulting in a loved one dying, would you have said same then.

Even when resting a fire appliance turns out within 1 minute of the bells going in. That's 5 men on the engine , kit on and it starting to move. FACT.

The porn I'll treat with the contempt it deserves, even if fire-fighters were watching it, they still leave it, as in anything else they're doing at the time.

Name me one product fire-fighters can achieve while in duty, they don't produce anything.

how does my post cause you to think I don't know what I'm talking about?

Everything I mentioned was fact, apart from the assumption that the lads were bored out of their skin, but I accept that I may be wrong, they could have been over the moon sat on their arses doing nowt.

The point I was trying to highlight was that there seems to be a hell of a lot of wasted time on a firemans shift.

The positioning of the appliance for the tall ships was a very good decision considering the potential traffic problems, so that would seem to indicate that management seem to know what they are talking about.

Once again, trying to be fair to the lads, I'm sure that they would have had more fire related duties to get on with had they been at the station, but as an outsider, it just appears so selfish to be striking over shift times when so many other people are losing jobs.

Whatever the salaries are Bob, and actually thery're far from bad especially when you take pensions into account, they knew the situation when they joined.

Besides, this is fark all to do with salaries, its about shift patterns impacting on second or even third jobs.

My point is that even if all their arguments were beyond argument, to strike on bonfire night is hugely cynical and frankly counter productive. The firemen had public empathy in line with Nurses and soldiers, after this exercise that has ended. As a PR exercise this has been disasterous.

i cant understand anyone having a bad word to say about this strike people need to stop listening to the bullshit the government feed people,as for the firemen been on a good wage come off it its nothing special i was earning 15 quidph 7yrs ago in uk and yes on nites i did just sit on my arse for 12 hrs while the machine was running,if theres not a fire wots wrong with them having a kip.
I have same thoughts for police nurses ect all very underpaid doin a job not many of us would do.

Easy to say when it's not your tax money that they're pissing.

id happily pay extra tax for the people i mentioned to get a decent salary.
over here ya pay extra on ya rates for emergency services ive no problem with that its a good idea.
just one thought when your worried about your tax how much do ya think gets wasted on imigrants by the government..imigrants who avnt paid a penny in taxes and would more likely set ya house on fire rather than run in and save you.....

What a sack of shite.

There are far far far more people born and bred in this country who do nothing other than scrounge off the state than people born out of this country doing similar.

Your post is pretty distasteful and your last line is moronic.

Plus last time I looked my council tax bill had additional premiums on for emergency services.

You have lived in Oz to long with that last line. Just because they hate imigrants over there and you listen to the crap spouted by the Australian government doesnt mean we do over here.

Australia treat their own natives like crap so the imigrants have no chance.

one thing i never listen to is the government be it uk or oz
we seem to be getting side tracked from original thread i apoligise if my post upset anyone,but at the end of the day i was replying to someone moaning about having his taxes pissed up i was simply making a point.if people dont think its valid so be it im intitled to my opinion.

I'll make my last post on this topic.

Striking on bonfire night is not as bad as striking in the lead up to bonfire night. Yes of course the incidents go up on bonfire night, but the fact is that the few days leading up to bonfire night is as hectic if not more so. Most bonfires on a bonfire night are supervised by an adult, whilst the lead up is usually fires started by children/youths who put themselves and others in some form of danger.

Having said that I can see why people thinking striking over that period is wrong and can only be counter-productive to any cause the fire-fighters believe is right.

The only 2 national strikes called by the Fire Brigade Union, the all out strike of 1977 which I believe Mr I covered in green goddesses and the strikes of 2002/03 which were on selected days both started on November 7th of those years, which may have been advantageous to the fire-fighters as the so called bonfire period is deemed to be over.

Although I know some of the reason behind the strike action, no longer being in the service and more importantly an active union man I don't know the whole situation regarding this dispute but know that this decision would not have been taken lightly with regards to the dates chosen for the strike. So for me to say I'm for or against is now more a personal point of view than a more informed one. But as I say the decision would have been thoroughly thought over, and of course taken so the impact is high.

Having said that I will state my life on it and bet any amount of money that if a situation arises where life or property is at a high risk of loss, fire-fighters WILL break their own picket lines and mount an appliance to attend.

Do peopel actually believe that 20odd grand a year salary is actually good these days?

If you dont have a job, then yes.

28 grand for a job that gives you enough time to work another job pretty much full-time seems pretty damn decent to me.

Agree with that point even if you did 2/3 (5 hour) shifts in a bar at minimum wage is an extra £4,524 ontop of the 28K

I was still at school in 77 Bob. The one I covered didn't actually happen although we were deployed in the Green Goddeses - Liverpool in my case. The fire brigade was threatening strikes but never actually went out. This was in about 81 I think.

Fortunately for me, some of the stuff that I learned during the pre=deployment training, saved my life a few years later when I was trapped in a house fire.

If I was a fireman and didn't have a trade I'd probably just do a bit of taxi driving, I can't imagine it's too hard to bump your money up an extra 10k a year and take yourself home a tidy sum every month.

There are two well paid part time jobs and they are both public sector. Teaching being the other one - 12 weeks holiday a year, a lie in every morning and you're finished by mid afternoon.

Here we go.......!

Are you a bit bored today Mr I? You usually manage something more impressive when you're after a bite, this is just half-hearted.

Aye, it was a bit lame........ back in a bit with a better offering.

What strike lol

fook the lazy money grabbing wankers, 28k a year is a decent wage. "we put our life in danger everyday" and???? you all knew what you were signing up for, if you dont like it then get a new job.

Don't be so fucking stupid.

Oh and if someone sets your house on fire tonight you'll be putting it out yourself, the last thing you'd want is one of them lazy money grabbing wankers saving you and your family. Imagine the shame!

how is it stupid?

they get 28k a year, an infantry soldier straight out of training and deployed to afghan gets payed roughly 18k a year, dont see us crying do you

In both cases you knew the salary when you joined. Lets face it, no one joins the Army for the money.

28k is not a fortune but its a site better than a lot of people get and its above the national average. The Armed forces pay below Sgt is a disgrace.

its alot better now mate unless you are still in your first 4 years service. i'm a lance jack and due my full screw next year and i get paid nearly 29k a year but i'm in germany so get alot of allowances for that

I thought they'd done away with LOA ?

I seem to remember that LOA for Belgium was around 40% extra on a Army private soldier's daily rate with Germany being a bit less. Not that I ever got either.

Naw, unfortunately not. My point was that I was never based in either. 3 Commando Brigade don't do Germany, we tended to get cold and wet places like Norway, Scotland or the Falklands.

LOA is still going strong mate, i got 660 a month last year for it but since the pound has been fooked its dropped now to 350