He's done very well for The Mackems this season. As has Shawcross for Stoke. Both good up and coming defenders who read the game exceptionally well.

That headline woke me up this morning as I was walking back from the papershop!!

If he gets picked for England I'm going to start campaigning for Sam Collins going to South Africa. He is nowhere near international class. It's nice for someone to go from Brentford to the top level of club football but he is borderline Premiership quality, he has some good games he has some nightmares. Shawcross is streets ahead of him.

he is comfortably premier class. very dominant, superb header of the ball. needs a pacy partner though

So he has no pace then?

Quite important in the Premiership that. Put him up against an Anelka or a Bellamy and he is found wanting, Joel Porter tore him a new arsehole in one half of football at the Vic five years ago. Pump balls into the box and give him a tackle to make, yes he's good, international class? If people like him are even considered it's probably why we are vastly over rated as an international football team.

Pace isn't everything. John Terry has never had much pace, and it was only a couple of years ago he was in the Fifa World Team of the Year. (Same goes for Rio Ferdinand, Carles Puyol etc).

I do agree that Shawcross is better, but you can't deny Turner has had a really good season.

Terry was in the FIFA worl team of the year this year, along with Danny Alvez, Vidic and Evra in defence.

Exactly, so pace isn't really that important when you can read the game as well as the "elite" players do.