well that clears a lot of it up.....

That statement doesn't tell us anything new, but it does seem to be a case where HUFC are clear in what they want to happen. Billingham are disputing that any agreement to pay HUFC exists, while I can see that has to be frustrating for any business would it not be more sensible for HUFC to approach this in a more discrete manner, sit down with whoever runs Billingham and agree a brand new deal that everyone is happy with and treating the outstanding debt as a long term loan that BTFC can pay off over a fixed term?

I know the amount is only £10,444 now, but didn't Pools spend something in the region of £100,000 on Billingham's pitch?

So basically what the fellow from Billingham said is correct. BTFC claim that the agreement signed to contribute to the upkeep of the ground is null and void and HUFC claim it still stands.

My question is this, BTFC made a payment on this agreement in October 2008, HUFC have asked them for the rest of the money since and have been ignored ... Why is it only now that they are claiming that it is null and void?

With regards to the part in pools statement regarding who signed this document, it was NOT a former director. There has only ever been one director at the club, Mr T. Donnelly. With regards to a payment being made, I cannot answer any questions on that as I know nothing about it, either if it was paid, not paid, and if it was who by.

What does it clear up?
It just confirms what most people thought anyway.
It is painfully obvious that because HUFC had gone to the pains of applying a winding up petition that they were owed money and were determined to get it.
BTF dispute that the areement which generates the debt is valid.
HUFC have not disclosed the amount they consider they are owed.

What remains unanswered, as far as I'm concerned, is the question of where this leaves BTFC should HUFC be successful in court.
IF and I mean IF it means that BTFC go under, then the stigma of a larger football club effectively closing down a smaller club will be such that the adverse publicity will not be worth the hassle.
I was asked yesterday if I would advocate HUFC writing off the debt and I said I would.

I think HUFC have made their point as forcefully as they can. They now need to walk away with dignity an forget it.
Most people on here do not want HUFC to be associated with closing down another football club, especially not a local one with whom they seem to have had a friendly relationship with.
I have never doubted the fact that HUFC/IOR are in the right here, my concern is I don't want to be associated with closing down BTFC.
If that happens then I will never forgive them for it.
Just my opinion that's all.

At the end of the day nobody on here knows the ins and out of the deal, for all we know someone could have taken 10 grand off the club and stuck it on a downpayment for a new Merc.
Until it is sorted out in court or otherwise everything is coffee shop talk.

"This is a ride down a road to nowhere and when you get to where you where going you'll wonder why you bothered." ...a famous statesman once said and this about sums it all up.

That sums my feelings up too, if they owe pools money they should pay, and if it was £100,000 or £1,000,000 then winding them up would seem the only option. As BT don't own their ground or any serious assets what would winding them up achieve?

I agree in what would winding up achieve.
But maybe now people can look and see IOR were perfectly within their rights to do what they did and have acted in a lawful way.

its not about whether its lawful, its about whether its morally right.

Would it not set a precedent? What else are we meant to do?

We have been looking after the maintenance the ground for two years and Billingham have been happy to use these facilities without contributing anything, they had a clear agreement at the time. Ten Grand over two years work it out it's not as if Pools have been asking for an unreasonable amount for this work, it is a very nominal fee. I've probably, well almost certainly, spent more on drink in that period

Someone come up with another solution and I'll listen (and just writing off the debt isn't one). MisterB is Billingham not paying their way 'Morally right?'

It's £100 a week for the last two years.
If they can't afford that then maybe they need to look at their finances.

Winding them up would achieve only one thing; BTFC could not play at Bedford Terrace.

We invest £100000 on the pitch and they cant afford to pay £100 a weeek......Well i know who i stand by in this arguement.

Concurring.

It's not an unreasonable amount is it really considering the amount we've invested in Bedford Terrace, although I doubt that will be considered by the national press. As has been said, it's a no win situation for Pools now.

Apart from :

paying the electricity bills,
water rates,
gas bills,
providing half time hospitality for club officials,
sweeping and cleaning the changing rooms,
opening the bar
and PROVIDING THE GROUND!

Correct me if i'm wrong, but it's not their ground.

It isn't your ground is it? Your only assets are some bibs and a box of wagon wheels.

We hold the lease, so we decide who can and who can't play on the ground in addition to ouselves.

And if you were wound up the leasehold would be free. Or am I being cynical.

Yes I think you are, I'm sure the last thing Pools want is Billingham Town to be wound up, they just want what they are owed and not to have the piss taken out of them. What would we want with the leasehold to a Northern League ground?

I'm sure some agreement will be made in courts about settling the debt, they aren't going to fold over £10,000 surely?

Back to being a tad cynical for a second if the leasehold was available IOR could probably afford it and perhaps develop their own training facilty there. If they buy the Vic could then try to buy Bedford Terrace as some kind of long term masterplan to make HUFC a power in football once they own top class training facilities and a high standard of stadium.

Or perhaps this route is the last resort to get BTFC to acknowledge the debt exists. God knows I just hope it doesn't come back to bite the club.

It's a football pitch and some changing rooms, their is no scope for training facilities it's just a Northern League football ground.

Misplaced, throwaway comment.

The debt is on-going, tho, isn't it? If IOR win the court case, that means that Billy Town are committed to paying for ground maintenance indefinitely. They can't afford that, so.....

They can't afford a £100 a week!? I bet they've had players taking that home before.

of course it is.

My argument is surely there must have been another way to sort this (in a legal sense) other than issuing a WUP?

It just seems a bit heavy handed. If it has been issued as a LAST (very very very last) resort, then fair enough.

And we spent that money because we got something out of it; a reserve team pitch worth playing on. It seems to me that if we want to use a non-league club's ground and we're not happy with the facilities, we spend the money to get it to the standard that we want. It seems a bit rich to me to then say, give us some cash for doing it.

Dunno, but if as everyone says football clubs don't make profits, where's the £100 coming from? Presumably they were paying for their ground maintenace pre-IOR improvements, but now that they've got the improvements ( that they didn't need), they can't afford them.

I hope the Club made a few enquiries about what Billingham could afford before they suggested all this. Otherwise the whole move might be seen to be unethical.

What, a giant oil company being unethical - you're joking surely.

Well, exactly, Mr H, but some people seem to be being a bit naive about what's going on.

In the statement it says Pools have taken legal advice, so this would suggest that they have been to their Solicitors to see what is the best course of action after all else fails and the Solicitors have advised Pools to issue a WUP. So in that case it would seem that they are acting on legal advice and have not just decided to issue a WUP.

Also if they win in the Courts it would look like Pools were in the right after all as the Courts agree with Pools.

Just a couple of thoughts!

Well, yes, there's probably no doubt that they're owed money. Use your loaf. They've also invested hundreds of thousands of pounds doing up a Club that they don't own.

I would be interested to know what fee's BTFC actually pay at this moment, do they pay a basic rent to the council or have these payments slipped also due to the financial situation?

Or has this already been mentioned.

Neil has got some of it right.
Stockton Council lease the ground to Town. Billy Town pay all the bills apart from what is spent on the pitch.
Pools do not pay any other bills apart from those related to pitch maintenance.

The statement from Pools is clumsily worded at best because it is wrong to say that Billy Town pay nothing to ground maintenance. They do, as Neil points out. Pools pay towards pitch maintenance not for everything at the ground, much of which Pools benefit from.

Pools may be legally right but it seems pretty foolhardy to be taking this to court.
If they lose they incur costs. If they win the legal argument & Billy go bust as a result Pools don't win there either & may still have to cover a proportion of the costs.

They may also lose access to Bedford Tce completely .
If Billy go tits up & I sincerely hope they don't Pools could lease the ground from Stockton BC but would then be liable for ALL costs associated with the ground not just those with the pitch.

Best I think to write off the 10k & attempt to enter into a new agreement.
If this isn't achievable then the Ressies may have to switch to Horden or similar as we did way back when.

We shouldn't under any circumstances be contemplating closing down another football club.The PR alone would be terrible & would piss a number of people who support/have a soft spot for Pools right off.

Here's hoping Pools & Billy Town can get this sorted to the benefit of both clubs.

The worst thing is that all this bad PR is affecting the fans most. All the fans who are angry/ashamed at what is going on are the ones who are suffering. All the media articles are saying 'Hartlepool United this and that', effectively putting the owners, team, staff, and fans all in the same boat. In reality though it's one or two people a lot nearer the top who are making the club look like a bunch of heartless, selfish b*stards. The fans should never have to feel ashamed of their club or contemplate not going to watch the team they love play. As always, it's the minority who spoil it for the majority.

It doesn't matter if we are 100% nail on correct, the club will still end up looking like the panto villain. I just wish someone had seen that even if we get the money and prove a point, the negativity it creates will make it a pointless victory.

Exactly! Pools had consideration when they entered the agreement- they benefitted by entering it. Its also a risk of such a deal with a non-league club that they may go bankrupt or whatever - it was a HIGH RISK investment that could always comeback and bite you on the bum. Its like a loan shark charging higher interst rates because the customer is high risk, has ccj's or whatever. Pools got the chance to use a local pitch for their reserve team without using the Vic and ruining the pitch. It was high risk and sure enough Billy town have little cash and whether through a careless director or whatever cant afford to honour the agreement.

Yes Pools are entitled to the money if the agreement is legal (i.e the rep from Billy town was authorised to sign it on their behalf) but like MrB says, closing down a local non-league club when we may not even get the full 10.5k back is not a victory in any shape or form. Pools will lose out more than 10k in the long run as a result and lose a lot of respect.

Pools poor PR sinks to the lowest depth ever IMO.

I would harly call £100pwk a loan shark type agreement.....we obviously disagree on this one.

Example of some good PR

http://www.hartlepoolunited.co.uk/page/ ... 55,00.html

3 points on Saturday please.....

i think the £100 would just to say cover the wages of the groundsmen

£100 per week is a lot of money if you don't have much income though.

yes £100 is a lot of money when you have'nt got two ha'pennies to scratch your arse with,i hope pools see sense and put it down to experience and write it off,because it does'nt matter how much good you do people always remember the bad more than anything else,god i sound like pok

This is the football equivalent of shooting Bambi's mother, O.K. you've got a hunting licence and it's all above board, but you just don't squeeze the trigger, it wouldn't feel right.

The more this discussion goes on, the less I feel like giving a sh*t about going tomorrow.

Brilliant analogy as ever

You misunderstood me retro. Im not saying our agrement was lie a loan shark one at £100, the fact im trying to make is that we took a gamble with a fairly high risk investment and it went wrong. Had the club took a safer option and built their own reserve ground then it would have cost a lot more. HUFC appear to have taken a risk with a club like BT always in danger of financial hardship.

Don't worry deer those awful people at HUFC would never shoot me.

This guy would....

http://www.hartlepoolunited.co.uk/page/ProfilesDetail/0,,10326~9046,00.html

Of course he wouldn't, he is after all our player of the Millennium.