I've started a new thread on this as feel the other topic where it being discussed is not the place.

[quote="Poolie of Kent"]Yeah alright, I know some in the East aren't happy and believe that the West Germans are taking away jobs from them and some West Germans aren't happy they're having to pay for transforming the East after unification etc, but...

the night of the 9th November 1989 has given the greatest story of the power that people have through peaceful revolution and the will that people have to be free and united, that the world has ever seen.

It was East Germany and communism that was the biggest economic disaster in the world.

Do you actually know anything about the Berlin wall apart from the point it came down on the 9th November 1989.

You state " the greatest story of power the people have seen. Power for what ?

Was it only the communist USSR that wanted it kept in place. The answer is NO, as a certain PM of the UK, Margaret Thatcher didnt want the re-unification of Germany, neither did Mitterand( French president)

Thatcher is reported to have said to Gorbachev

"The destabilisation of Eastern Europe and the breakdown of the Warsaw Pact were not in the West’s interests."

She noted the huge changes happening across Eastern Europe, but she insisted that the West would not push for its decommunisation. Nor would it do anything to risk the security of the Soviet Union. WHY would that be ?

Even 20 years later, her remarks are likely to cause uproar. They are all the more explosive as she admitted that what she said was quite different from the West’s public pronouncements and official Nato communications. She told Mr Gorbachev that he should pay no attention to these.

“We do not want a united Germany,” she said. “This would lead to a change to postwar borders, and we cannot allow that because such a development would undermine the stability of the whole international situation and could endanger our security.”

Records detail how the Russians reacted to the events of 1989 and reveal the attempts by Britain and France to halt moves to German unification by manoeuvring the Soviet Union into opposing it. WHY would that be ???

So what really happened? That meant the Berlin wall came down. Why was it peaceful ?


In the early days of November 1989, East Germans turned out in massive street protests to demand Gorbachev-style reforms. Their dictatorial rulers tried to appease them by issuing "new" travel regulations. Though the rules suggested that there would be freedom, the fine print still included the national security exemptions that had always prevented East Germans from leaving. None of the people writing these new regulations took the obvious steps that would have been needed to open the border, such as consulting the Soviets or informing the border guards that such a move was coming. In short, there were no signs that authorities intended to open the wall on Nov. 9.


That night at 6, Guenter Schabowski, a member of the East German Politburo who served as its spokesman, was scheduled to hold a news conference. Shortly before it began, he received a piece of paper with an update on the regulations and a suggestion that he mention them publicly. He had not been involved in discussions about the rules and did not have time to read the document carefully before starting.
His hour-long news conference was so tedious that Tom Brokaw, who was there, remembered being "bored." But in the final minutes, an Italian journalist's question about travel spurred Schabowski's memory. He tried to summarize the new regulations but became confused, and his sentences trailed off. "Anyway, today, as far as I know, a decision has been made," he said. "It is a recommendation of the Politburo that has been taken up, that one should from the draft of a travel law, take out a passage. . ."
Among the long-winded clauses, some snippets leapt out: "exit via border crossings" and "possible for every citizen."
Suddenly, every journalist in the room had questions. "When does that go into force?" shouted one. "Immediately?" shouted another. Rattled and mumbling to himself, Schabowski flipped through his papers until he uttered the phrase: "Immediately, right away."

Brokaw recalled. Some wire journalists rushed out to file reports, but the questions kept coming, among them: "What will happen to the Berlin Wall now?"
Alarmed about what was unfolding, Schabowski concluded with more muddled responses: "The question of travel, of the permeability therefore of the wall from our side, does not yet answer, exclusively, the question of the meaning, of this, let me say it this way, fortified border." Furthermore, "the debate over these questions could be positively influenced if the Federal Republic [of West Germany] and if NATO would commit themselves to and carry out disarmament."

As NATO was unlikely to disarm itself by breakfast, Schabowski clearly did not expect much to happen that night. But it was too late -- by 7:03 p.m., the wires were reporting that the Berlin Wall was open.

Across the border, a West German television channel, reported the news cautiously in its 8 p.m. broadcast, first asserting only that the wall probably would become "permeable" soon. But for its next news program at 10:30 p.m. -- delayed to 10:42 by a football match -- the staff went big. Hanns Friedrichs, the moderator who enjoyed a Cronkite-like status in the country, proclaimed, "This ninth of November is a historic day." East Germany "has announced that, starting immediately, its borders are open to everyone."

The show cut live to Berlin, where its lonely correspondent failed to find drama or crowds at either the Brandenburg Gate or the Invaliden Street border-crossing point. It had been nearly four hours since the end of Schabowski's news conference, but no one was crossing or celebrating. The journalists had gotten ahead of reality -- though reality was about to catch up. East Germans, who could watch such western broadcasts illicitly, believed the news and began to gather on their side of the wall.


At the Bornholmer Street border-crossing station in East Berlin, guard Harald Jäger, on the job since 1964, had watched Schabowski on television. Dumbfounded by the remarks, he told his fellow guards that the official's words were "deranged," and he started calling around. His superiors assured him that travel remained blocked, and he and his colleagues were armed as always.

But soon Jäger and his team were busy waving back some would-be crossers who had heard the western reports. A police car arrived and an officer announced over a loudspeaker that it was not possible simply to exit, but the crowd kept swelling.


Before long, the guards at Bornholmer Street were outnumbered by thousands of people; the same thing was happening at several other checkpoints. Overwhelmed and worried for their own safety, Jäger and his fellow guards reasoned that the use of violence might quickly escalate and become uncontrollable. They decided instead at around 9 p.m. to let a trickle of people cross the border, hoping to ease the pressure and calm the crowd. The guards would check each person individually, take notes and penalize the rowdiest by refusing them re-entry. They managed to do this for a while, but after a couple of hours the enormous crowd was chanting, "Open the gate, open the gate!"


After more debate, Jäger decided that raising the traffic barriers was the only solution. Around 11:30 p.m., the decades-long Cold War division of Germany ended.
Throughout the night, other crossings opened in much the same way. Every opening meant more people flooding into the west and more images beaming back east, in turn sending more easterners onto the streets. Because of the ongoing top-level crisis meetings, those who might have ordered bloody reprisals were largely uninformed, and unaware that the known parameters of their political lives had suddenly disappeared.

Of course, the wall would have come down eventually, but not necessarily in the same way. An opening on a later date could have posed far more dangers. Soviet leader Gorbachev had made clear that he would not use violence as political change began sweeping Eastern Europe, but what if he had already moved farther down his arc toward losing all power? What might another Soviet leader have done?

Even the exact hour mattered: The wall opened when many East German political and military leaders were sequestered in meetings, and many significant Soviet leaders -- because of the time difference -- were already asleep. What if they'd had time to fortify the borders before the flood of people arrived? As it was, none of them could mount an immediate response, and soon it was too late to undo the events of the evening.

We like to think that all great events have great causes, and obviously long-term political, economic and military forces shaped the Cold War -- and how it ended. But momentous events are also a sort of ambush of history, when all those long-term pressures come together in an unexpected way. The opening of the Berlin Wall, largely unintentional, was such an event, an unsettling thought for those who see history as the result of strategy and planning by pivotal leaders. ( your thoughts there POK)
If only a few things had been different, we might not have such happy memories to celebrate this week. But thanks to the mumbling of a sleep-deprived East German official, some overzealous Western reporting and the willingness of East Germans to risk a trip to the wall, the Cold War reached a swift and peaceful conclusion.

Not exactly the PEOPLE POWER you spoke of. It could have been Mass murder, of 1000's of people.

bollocks, absolute bollocks where exactly did you copy and paste all that from?

I hope it was pasted rather than typed,Ive got RSI just from reading it

christ bob you need to get out more

Well, Germany in my opinion has obviously proved Margaret Thatcher wrong. I think it's normal to doubt what could happen, but to not believe that Germany should be united was atotally stupid.

Yes, you'll have problems but if you look at the country it has become now, it is phenomenal how the place has changed in 20 years.

And they did that all themselves did they or were they continually in Strasbourg with their hands out??

And who was paying for that?? The EU?? And where did the money come from?? Largely the developed and successful members of the EU, at that time, Britain and France.....

You can't dump 50 million bankrupt people into a prosperous country and celebrate the deal....

By the way, do forgive me for asking, but aren't you still under 20??

The bit were I say "i started a new thread, was not meant to infer I knew that lot of the top of my head, I didnt, as Yubep said if I did I should get out more , the names and some of the quotes are fairly obviously copy and paste, though I did know the basis and the history of some of it.

The point I was making was I didnt think the thread were POK originally brought up the Berlin wall ( german goalkeeper killed) was the place to stick those facts.

If I knew that lot off the top of my head I would be entering mastermind with the" berlin wall falling" as my specialist subject.

Read POK's thread on german goalkeeper killed, and you will see why I felt he needed to know more about it and why it was put on a "new thread". I dont apologise for using a copy and paste at times to attempt to show him that his "blinkered" view(IMHO) needed some enlightning.

Ah well thats it then, if its reported it must be true.

We wont get into a discussion on the pro's and con's of Mrs t again Mr I, the reports of what she reportedly said are in minutes from a meeting between her and Gorbachev.

Not in the daily sport

read half a line, thats HALF a line! scrolled down a bit,then a bit more, then a bit more before deciding I cant be fooking arsed reading that!!!


soz bob

Bob, I recommend you watch the documentary that was on BBC2 last Saturday "The Secret Life of the Berlin Wall".

I think it maybe very eye-opening to you.

The problem that you will have is that it is true. The whole thing is minuted.
You got it right when you highlighted the introduction of the female into the red arrows..............the same applied to Downing street. The woman was a complete disaster.
Mind you she would have made a good referee.............. me me me me me me me me .

Everywhere has changed in 20 years.

That's true, Mr. Hawklord...and how the world has changed in the last 20 years!

I remember going on a school trip to Berlin two years - I came back thinking that it was the best school trip I ever went on. On our itenary during the week was a day trip to Dresden. I couldn't believe the fact that the old town looked as if it hadn't been touched and the City Centre looked world-class. I saw the tramlines and the stations etc, and when we left Dresden that day to return back to Berlin, I thought "It's hard to imagine that it was only 50 years ago that Dresden had ruined."

Feck me thats a long school trip

Yh and twenty years ago message boards didn't exsist just think life without PoK!!

must have been p&r coaches

Sorry, two years ago.