I guess they had an idea that introducing Western style democracy would bring an end to all the problems. This theory has been disproved!

Israel has reputedly one of the best intelligence services in the world coupled with their highly sophisticated military capability and could be far more precise with its strikes. They're getting away with murder in the name of eradicating murderers.
They're intent on seizing control of Gaza as Netanyahu has stated, and following that they'll take land from Palestinians.
This is not going to be solved anytime soon and the bigger concern is that the whole region erupts.

Urban warfare is notoriously difficult particularly if the civilian occupants have not been allowed to flee (by Hamas..human shield dont you know) and the buildings are close together. The Americans found it a challenge in Fallujah (Iraq) and had very strict rules of engagement which of course the enemy were not bound by. Guess its exactly the same in Gaza: any undamaged buildings occupied by people not in uniform but with potential hidden weapons. Ruins potentially hiding RPG teams and snipers. Impossible for the IDF to be precise and incisive. The IDF didnt ask to be there, they were left with no choice.

Has Netanyahu said he wants to take land from Palestine? The Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2004 so once Hamas are defeated a UN peacekeeping force would be a better option than another Israeli occupation. Hamas actually want the whole region to erupt as its their best chance of destroying Israel.

Hasn't said they'll take land, he'd lose all support if he did, but has said they're Israel will government Gaza after the conflict.

Well if this is true you can understand why if you take into consideration what happened last time the peoplof Gaza were allowed to govern themselves. I still think a UN Peacekeeping force would be the best solution in the short term but we'll see.

Interesting video on Hamas and a hospital https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sajDZX_YRfw

It doesn't really matter who you lot believe are the goodies. Fact is thousands of innocent men women and very sadly babies / children are being slaughtered on both sides and that's what really matters.Wars are good for fooooking nothing but criminal profits of the filthy world gangsters.

Yeah thousands being slaughtered but before 7th October they weren't. What happened?

Israel are killing terrorist and future terrorists, saves time.

As for Israeli SF, of course they’re in there, as are the IDF. They’re engaged in the most dangerous of all military operations; FIBUA. It’s time consuming and fraught with death traps. Hamas will have booby trapped everything not nailed down. Netanyahu (ex Israeli special forces by the way) knows this and also knows that the best way to deal with it is to bomb the shit out of it first.

Yup but the BBC loving Guardian readers have a touching belief that using precision heat seeking bullets it is possible to fight a war in a built up urban location and only kill enemy combatants. Now either they are as thick as mince or their real agenda is to support those who want nothing less than the destruction of the Jewish State. Hamas dead keen on a ceasefire aren't they? I wonder if it is because the IDF are doing them some serious damage?

The truth could be somewhere in the middle lads….ie not everyone here wants one of the two sides wiping out completely

Don't think any of us want the destruction of either side, but a lot of us want the killing if innocents on both sides to be minimised if not stopped completely.
As for precision over blunt object approach, the former could quite easily have been the earlier response. If Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields, it's not OK imo to just kill them all and write them off as collateral damage.

Frankly, if I was the Israelis, after the Hamas outrage I’d have lined forces up on the border and just waited, not crossed the border, but let international opinion be on my side.
The fly in the ointment, is that immediately after the outrage, even in this country we had their supporters on the streets celebrating the attacks ….even before the Israeli’s had worked out what was happening.
A strange place the Middle East.

Spot on Snowy. the dirty evil twin brothers from opposite sides of government. Just goes to show they all wear the same colours it's just a game to fool the sheeple

think looking at the loss of innocent lives from a british or even a western point of view is no help whatsoever. life has always been cheap in that region as seen in the past and should be judged on there feelings and not ours.

A good point MR A. Hamas are 100% to blame for all that is happening yet somehow they have manipuated the Western press into giving tacit support by making outrageous claims. 10,000 dead? How do we know this is true? Where is the independent verification? How many dead are Hamas "fighters"?

I was thinking that Mr Ozzy… who supply’s the figures, surely not Hamas.
The BBC had to give an on air apology for a news report of theirs that went round the world….it stated the “Israeli troops were targeting Arab speakers and medics”….they later apologised and said the message should have said ….”the Israeli forces included Arab speakers and Medics”, big difference

As far as I know, the only casualty figures available come from Hamas: they are the governing body of Gaza. As for the BBC balls up...well its the BBC, the mouthpiece of the liberal establishment so it is what you'd expect.

What would we do if the Tartan Army decided to cross the border and "grab" an area of England, say, south to a line drawn across from York to Blackpool. I don't think we would say "that's ok lads". I suppose then in a few years time we could be playing the likes of Rangers and Celtic

This effectively happened years ago in Palestine where the Jews invaded Arab territory and fighting has been ongoing ever since.

I dont see how this justifies what happened on Oct 7th and the cynical use of innocent civilians as a human shield while gleefully reporting grossly exagerrated casualty figures.

Are the German’s kicking off because most of modern Poland is former German territory going back hundreds of years and Prussia taken over by the Russians?
Are the Poles angry the Russians took over most of Poland despite being allies?
All done by two of the most vile powers to grace this earth.

Using your argument Israel is justifed doing whatever it wants post Oct 7th....would you be ok if they used Chemical or Nuclear weapons in Gaza?----if not then that means you agree there is such a thing as proportional response, and the debate really is whether this response is proportional or not (I would argue not but I get its a horrible situation.

Now you’re just being silly….
I’m merely pointing out that one of those two countries lost considerable territory in WW1 which lead to WW2…they both learnt from that and settled their dispute differently and moved on…not to their wish but common sense’ prevailed.
A commodity that has never existed in the Middle East, just confrontation.

Wasn't directed at you Snowy

A lot of Posters here seem to be of the opinion post 7 Oct anything goes and its all on Hamas---am just pointing out what that (IMO over basic logic) actually means if you follow it through....if that sounds abhorrent then that would suggest people agree there needs to be some proportion to the response---and (again IMO) I think Israel is not being proportionate in terms of response/impact to civillians

What about intent? Hamas deliberately kills Israeli civilians on Oct 7th in order to provoke war. Hamas hides behind its civilian population and then complains to the Western media about casualties.

Israel: attempts to eradicate Hamas and tries not to kill civilians although this is difficult in the environment.

See the difference in intent? See one side is a Western style democracy the other is a savage terrorist gang that is bound by no rules but will exploit everyone elses. I seriously cannot understand those who seek moral equivalency between Israel and what it is fighting.

They're supposed to be fighting Hamas not all Palestinians though aren't they?
1400 innocent Israeli lives were taken by Hamas murderers and the world is horrified, the only equivalency that counts is that innocent Palestinians are as precious as any others.
Wiping out Hamas whilst obliterating Northern Gaza will create a new group who's hatred will be borne from what Israel is doing to their land and people.
Hopefully at some time soon it'll settle down and the UN establish a peace keeping force in the region.

If they are bombing the shit out of everything they know they are gonna kill thousand of civilians when they do it.....they cant then plausibly claim they didnt 'intend' to kill civilians en masse when they know their actions will have that conclusion...it doesnt stand up logically

I think thats where we disagree--I dont think Israel is trying particularly hard not to kill civillians.

I am not saying there is a moral equivalency--but if you think Israel is so morally superior surely there is a burden on them given that moral superiority to prove it by not just carpet bombing the place?

And again HAMAS does not = the 2million citizens of Gaza.....and its a weak argument IMO to say all 2million are 'collateral damage'/expendable because of the actions of a subset.

They are fighting Hamas and not Palestinian civilians but Hamas keep using the civilians as human shields. You wonder why Hamas has not evacuated the civilans from areas where the fighting is taking place....actually we know why.

The Palestinians already hate the Israelis so it is not as if they will like them if there are less civilian deaths. Notice the BBC never ask the Palestinians how the feel about Hamas. I wonder why? The BBC never ask the Palestinians what they think about Oct 7th do they? I wonder why. Call me an old cynic but maybe the questions are never asked because they know the Palestinian people are fully behind Hamas.

I think that is stretching and mental gymnastics to pigeon hole 2mil+ people under the same umbrella so people feel less guilty about massacring them.
As I said above if that's truly what people think then logically they should support Israel using chemical weapons to kill everyone in there....safest way for Israel..but obviously if you think thats inhumane ask yourself why?--and then apply that to whether indiscrimate carpet bombing is also inhumane

PS I know this is a difficult subject and I do appreciate you debating it sensibly and non personally---what this board is all about IMO!

Would be interested to know where you think the civilians can be evacuated to.

Unlike Hamas, Israel dropped leaflets advising Palestinians to leave certain areas before a any bombs were dropped. Hamas wouldn't let them go. Israel made an effort to preserve civilian life, Hamas deliberately killed civilians without any warning on Oct 7th.

Oops….any way my last word on the subject is this….
The Middle East has been a basket case since Jesus turned up and well before that, for some demented reason, in an area which should be booming, people are still arguing over things that happened literally hundreds of years ago and compromise is a dirty word…..I despair of a place that puts macho values and schoolyard politics over common sense ever being habitable.

The hatred is on both sides, I lived there for the best part of a year and believe me the Israelis are not the perpetual innocent victims they like to portray themselves as.

The use of chemical weapons is against international law and no western (in Israel's case western style) army possesses them or would use them even if they did. I strongly suspect that Hamas would not hesitate to use such weapons if they could get their hands on them. Israel continues to use conventional weapons in a war it did not start but has no choice but to finish. You seem very interested in this idea of proportionality. What do you think would be a proportionate response? Drop a few bombs and then wait for the next Hamas outrage? I am guessing the Israelis are sick of turning the other cheek.

So would blitzing Belfast have been proportionate to the IRA atrocities back in the day?

I have no doubt the Israelis are very far from perfect but I can appreciate why they are currently trying to end the threat of Hamas which they have lived with for many years. You will no doubt be aware that that Hamas regularly fire rockets into Israeli towns? The rockets cannot be properly aimed so they just explode anywhere in the populated areas. Over time Israel has responded with military incursions into the west bank but the rockets continue which is why they had to build the "Iron Dome" anti missile system based on The American Patriot system. It is impossible to live in peace with Hamas on their door step and the latest outrage it seems is the last straw.

What I find particularly annoying is the mainstream media in this country is very clearly anti Israel and is highly critical of everything they do. It is the same with the left of centre politicians: the likes of Corbyn etc.

Do you think the situations are the same?

Very much so

Really? I guess you need a little help.

The Provisional IRA had certain demands which could be discussed and after a long period of time, agreement was reached which has largely brought peace to Northern Ireland. So the enemy at the time though vicious and not concerned about human life could be negotiated with. The majority of Northern Irish at that time were very loyal to Britain so "blitzing them" would have been unconscionable and would never have been permitted in a democraticy. The policy of managing the threat of the IRA eventually produced an acceptable outcome.

Hamas demand nothing less than the destruction of Israel ("From the River To The Sea") so are not interested in any kind of negotiation or compromise. There is actually nothing to be discussed. Either Israel allows itself to be attacked and over time it seems likely these attacks will increase in ferocity or it destroys Hamas: there is no middle ground. Hamas have already stated that October 7th will be repeated "again and again". The population of the West Bank has no loyalty towards Israel and is largely hostile. Hamas's aggression cannot be managed the way the IRA's was, Israel have tried to do that over the years but the attacks have got worse. Their only option is to destroy Hamas and to do so is causing the terrible loss of life. I say again for the millionth time.......what else is Israel supposed to do? The situations are clearly and obviously not the same.

Did you spend time in Northern Ireland during the troubles? - I did and strangely today there is a case brought against PIRA (Provional I. R. A.) and also naming Gerry Adams for henious crimes.

Nope never been to Northern Ireland or the West Bank. I just tell it the way I understand it based on what I have read and picked up on the media. All kinds of dark deeds were done during the "troubles" but very little compares to what has gone on in Israel and the West Bank since Oct 7th and thank goodness in Northern Ireland the situation is much better now.

I presume your experiences in Norther Ireland will enable you to understand it is not like The West bank.

you mean in the same way the western media has always portraid them and others dare not critice a state itself for having a label attached to them as an anti semmite. possibly the only country until trcently it was hard to have a pop at.

But if they hadn't been loyal to Britain--carpet bombing would be fair game?

The majority of Palestinians are peaceful citizens just getting on with their lives, the same as the citizens of Belfast were.
So it's fair to suggest similarities in that Belfast and Gaza citizens in the main favoured peace (regardless of loyalties), fair game to massacre Palestinians but not the people of Belfast to strike at terrorists. Just seems a tad hypocritical to me.
Anyway, a pause has now been agreed and hopefully some much needed aid wilt to those caught up as collateral damage, and hopefully the pause may lead to a longer term ceasefire.

do not think it was personal when my family were bombed out in the town in WW2. same way for a german family in a german city by us. its war and shit happens. its a pity that both sides cannot slug it out in a field with soldiers and civilians are left alone.

This is so absurd that words fail me. I think I have made my position plain together with my reasons. There is clearly no point in further discussion.

Just wondering how you know that "the majority of Palestinians are peaceful citizens just getting on with their lives". Has some survey been carried out? Maybe they are but as far as I am aware there is not a shred of evidence either way.

Your last sentence here is an actual joke. Did they ever do a survey in Ireland during the troubles to work out if their citizens were peaceful or not? Or Iraq while Al Qaeda were at large? I mean we can assume they are peaceful but there's not a shred of evidence to say that they are.
You mention that Israel dropped leaflets telling Palestinians to evacuate as they'd be bombed. But where can the 2.2 million people evacuate to? There are 17000 people per square mile, that's triple london's pop density. How do you fit these 17000 people into another square mile especially as Israel have been bombing extremely large areas.
You say it's different to the troubles as the IRA had things to negotiate on but what are Israel willing to negotiate on?

I've witnessed the peaceful Palestinians first hand when I lived in Israel so no I haven't done a survey I'm basing it on my real life experience.
One thing you don't need to do a survey on now though is there'll be a damp sight more hatred on both sides as more and more are killed.

1. As you may know, there were two warring factions in Northern Ireland who were busy planting bombs and shooting each other so our army had to try to keep the peace between the two groups. Totally differenrt from Gaza where one terrorist group is attacking Israel: the Palestinians are not fighting amongs themselves.

It is known that the majority of the population of Nortern Ireland at that time were Protestant. Protestants in general not disposed towards Republicanism and mainly loyal to the British crown. There was a Loyalist paramilitary group but clearly it is not possible to say if the the entire population of Protestants were peaceful or not. The key problem was that that the Protestants wanted to remain as part of the UK so I guess one could speculate they were mainly well disposed towards Britain and its peacekeeping troops.The republican Norther Irish were generally less well disposed towards Britain werent they? But of course many of them may have been peaceful because as you say, no survey was carried out. I do recall the women of Northern Ireland tried to stop the warring factions but the paramilitaries persuaded them that the gun was the only way so they had to keep quiet.

It is irritating to constantly hear the apologists for Hamas (The BBC, Mainstream media in general ) bang on about peaceful palestinians purely to demonize the Israelis for attempting to deal with an implacable enemy. There is no parallell between Northern Ireland and the Gaza strip: Zero.

2. It does not matter what Israel wish to negotiate on does it? You cant negotiate with a group who want you and your people destroyed or maybe you believe you can. Hamas supported by Iran want the complete destruction of the Jewish state nothing to talk about. Israel faces an existential threat: either it destroys Hamas or Hamas will continue its attacks foever more and October 7th demonstrates the attacks are becoming more deadly. Who knows what weapons Hamas might procure in the future?

Yes, Palestinians living and working in Israel but it doesnt work the other way, does it.

So if the Israelis stopped their attack and allowed Hamas to keep attacking them, there would be less hatred than if they finally destroyed Hamas? Debatable.