Just Received this today.


My reply,at the moment,goes


Any opinions/advice ?

Hmmm. You seem to be getting nowhere fast here, Groovy. What does the relevant law say? Unless it states that as the car driver you are responsible for the fag-end-throwing of the passengers, I don't see how you individually can be prosecuted.
Can't you get legal advice? You used to be able to consult a solicitor for a free short session, just to see what's what before hiring them

get your glasto buddy to cover it to death as well!!!!!

The bit where he offers me the discounted fine seems to indicate that he doesnt want to take this to the courts,hopefull Mr Marx will be on the boards before I post my reply.

if there's no PROOF, other than the official's word against yours, then I don't see how you can get done. It's then down to how corrupt the system is, i.e. do they want the fines to pay for this sort of thing regardless, in which case you'll have to go further, with associated escalating legal costs.
I'm no lawyer, but I would have thought in this day and age there would have to be PROOF!!!!!

We shall soon see Parmo,as I wont be paying the fixed penalty

I am sure by law, as you have queried this they are not allowed to increase any fine during this process. I wouldn't take it as a sign that they don't want to take it to court, even if this is the case.

they will go to court if needs be, to set a precedent of winning so people meekly pay up in future!! Groovy the rest of the world is counting on you winning this one!!!
Well, people in Hartlepool are, anyway!!!!

There is no way that they will want it to go to court. The person that supposedly saw the offence will not want to be identified. At best he's gonna look like a little grass.

If this person is a litter warden then surely he won't be arsed about looking a grass, it is his job

My previous advice still applies; they have to show that it was YOU who threw the litter. They have no proof that you were driving the car at the time and have no power, as far as I'm aware, to make you disclose who was driving the car (unlike speed camera offences). Speak to a solicitor, however, to confirm this!

But the fact that the warden has to appear in court may make his-her arse fall out. Groovy could be a right evil head for all this person knows. As groovy has put up a fight then this person is also probably having doubts about what they saw. Would you want to be identified as the person who told tails about such a petty crime?

If it was me .......i'd have paid it, simply because its a sign of the times, you wont be able to fart soon and you'll have a fixed penalty notice on your backside!!!

As someone said earlier they'll probably make an example, its a bit like the football thing people either pay the £75 and receive a ban or go not guilty, get found guilty and have £600 costs to pay.

The magistrates don't give a damn and it could cost him dear.

Good luck mate, we're all on your side.

Local Environmental Quality: litter
The litter offence - the law against littering

* Did you know it's a criminal offence to drop litter?
* Do you know what the maximum fine is and who can prosecute?
* Can you be fined for throwing litter from a car?
* Who can issue fixed penalties?

The offence of littering

People who carelessly discard litter in any open place are committing a criminal offence. (Except where it is allowed by law or done with the consent of the owner or occupier of the land). This includes private as well as public land, and land covered by water.

Prosecutions for littering are brought under section 87 - Offence of Leaving Litter - of the Environmental Protection Act 1990. The offence is:

"A person is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves it.”

However, a person convicted of this offence could be liable to a maximum fine of £2,500 (a level 4 offence on the standard scale).
What is litter?

The term "litter" has a very wide interpretation. As well as wrappers, cans, bottles, or packaging "litter" includes food, small items such as receipts and sweet wrappings and materials discarded during waste management and business operations. The legislation also states specifically that chewing gum and smoking-related materials are types of litter. As a guideline, a single sack of rubbish should generally be regarded as fly-tipping rather than litter. The offence relates to what is done with the litter, rather than what it is.

Natural matter such as overgrown vegetation, weeds or leaves which have fallen from trees are not classed as litter.

Dog faeces are classed as "refuse", not litter. Local authorities and other responsible bodies must remove them from land and highways as part of their section 89 (Environmental Protection Act 1990) duty to keep land free from litter and refuse. However separate laws apply in relation to controls on dog fouling.
Prosecutions

Prosecutions are usually undertaken by the local authorities, but the police and private individuals can also prosecute. Cases are heard in the local Magistrate's Court.

If you witness a littering offence you can report it to your local authority and they will decide if legal action is appropriate. You should gather as much evidence as possible to support your case, such as the time, precise location, a description of the litter and identity of the litterer. If the case goes to court and the accused pleads not guilty you may be called upon to give evidence. However, it is common for the accused to plead guilty by letter and for the case to be dealt with in his/her absence. As an alternative to prosecution, the police or the local authority may warn or caution the litterer.

It is possible for the citizen to pursue a private prosecution. However, you will need strong evidence to prove your case, preferably with a witness. Legal aid will not be available. We recommend you seek professional advice before proceeding.
Litter thrown from vehicles

Throwing litter from vehicles onto public land is also a littering offence under section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990.

If the registration number is taken the registered keeper's identity can be obtained from the Driver Vehicle and Licensing Agency by the police or the local authority. Witnesses should note whether the driver or passenger threw the litter and take a good description of the vehicle and offender so that this can be provided as evidence. Offences can be reported to the police or local authority and they will decide whether to take further action.
Fixed penalties

As an alternative to taking litterers to court, a local authority can appoint officers to issue fixed penalty notice fines to people they catch dropping litter. This has the benefit of dealing with littering as and where it happens. The offender is given 14 days in which to pay the fixed penalty fine. If it is not paid he/she can be prosecuted as laid out above.

The fixed penalty fine for littering is between £50 and £80 – local authorities have the freedom to set the amount for their area within these limits. Local authorities may also offer discounts for prompt payment, although the discounted rate cannot be lower than the bottom limit of £50.
Disposing of litter

* Put litter in a bin
* If there are no bins: TAKE YOUR LITTER HOME


This is from the DEFRA site.

It states that you have to give as much evidence as possible - now do they have any other than eyesight
from what distance did they see the alleged offence?
would they be able to replicate this in court?
have they got the cigarette end as evidence?
have they got photographice evidence - we all know that camera are there to prosecute us and not protect but it works the other way round as well - get them to prove it off a camera.
do you have medical evidence or have you had medical advice advising you not to smoke - this is normally handy in a court of law. - to prove that you do not smoke.

Without being funny he isnt being a grass, he is doing his job. Littering is a criminal offence.

the point is tho' groovy did not do said offence - passenger may have but not driver

I couldnt care less about who done it, just commenting on people calling a police offer a "grass" for doing his job.

There is no indication at all that the person who reported the offence was a police office.
It is more likely a council officer or even a member of the public
see the defra note and other suchlike on local authority sites anyone can report this.

Mr Hamster - No one is going to want to stand up in court and admit to reporting someone for littering are they? Would you?

I don't agree with littering, people should put things in the bin but Groovy is denying doing the act. The person who reported it may have a grudge, may of been mistaken or whatever. It's getting ridiculous when people are getting fines pinned on them when there is no evidence except glorified tittle tattle.......

But a litter wardens job is to try and prevent littering do I reckon that they will

i'm starting to gauge how you feel about this

to hell with it, why don't we simply bring back trials for witchcraft

I was talking to a mate at work about thiis issue, anyway his girlfriend works in the legal department at Sedgefield Council in Spennymoor. She said that the council there took someone to court for littering, the item was one of his bank statements which had been found in a park. The guy who was in court said that it was obviously his statement as it had has name and address on but that it had fallen out his pocket rather than been littered. This obviously seems logical to any normal person as you wouldn't discard a bank statement with all your details on willy nilly.

Anyway the court still found him guilty of littering and he was ordered to pay 900 quid......

take note groovy and lets put this matter to bed ffs .............. BTW i hope you get off but take note dont offer anybody else a lift ok

I have been told that the magistrates will take the council gadgys word as gospel & find me guilty,but feck it,this letter goes in the post today.

We'll see,theres an old comrade from my days as a shop steward in a prominent position on Hartlepool council now.I rang him this morning & hes gonna make a few enquiries & test the water for me & find out if they will go to court or bottle it.Ive also told him that if they do push this into court I will embarrass the council.

Groovy, it would be a complete travesty if the magistrate took the council gadgy's word as gospel. If he was going to find you guilty on that basis, it would be a complete waste of money hearing the case at all.
A Bunkerite demonstration is on the cards here.....

Blimey, Officer Dibble! It's a long time since I saw my hero

What sort of shite lyrics are those?

'Tab End Saga Blues'

I was on the train today and there was a copy of the Daily Star which has this on page 19.

HAIR OF DOG IS LITTER

Rubbish patrols have struck again - to stop a man brushing his dog in public because its hairs are classed as litter.

Dennis Brashford, 51 had been brushing collie Poppy in his car boot and some hair landed on the ground.

It was spotted by an eagle eyed council officer.

Despite being a pillar of the community who often picked up other peoples litter, Dennis of Gosport was warned he could face a 70 pound fine.

A Gosport council official commented 'our officer pointed out that he should take more care, technically discardingthings on the ground is littering'.

Quality!

when these chunts see litter being dropped do they pick it up or not?

if not then seeing as they reported the offence then surely they are aiding and abetting?

Thats like saying a woman who gets raped aided and abetted the crime by allowing a man to rape her!

Everyone knows you can get fined for letting your dog shite on the pavement?

Yet on Saturday I saw two Police horses clip-clopping down York Road, and one of them deposited a heap of Richard the Thirds all over the road.

Even horses that are not Police Horses are seemingly allowed to crap everywhere, even though they out-dung a dog the size of a Great Dane many times in volume.

I know dog mess is packed with lots of toxic nasties, but you wouldn't let your bairn play about with manure would you?

It wasn't even like the good old days, I waited for a whole five minutes, and not one old grannie came with a bucket and shovel to take it away for her roses.

er no it's not
it's like saying that if they are going to make so much of a song and dance about it then are they going to follow it thro.

also a woman who is raped who doesnt report it is also technically aiding and abetting the next rape carried out as if reported and nicked then wouldnt be able to rape.

Next time the bin men are round getting the rubbish and recycling, make a note of the vehicle registration and report them to the council. Chances are that they'll have dropped paper and cans and various other stuff. If that's not littering I don't know what is. . . . . . unless they only do it round here to P*** me off.

haha classic!!

I'm gonna do that

The important point here is that the council officer didn't see WHO dropped the tab end, only the car it came from. It's therefore impossible to prove that Mr GC did it! For Speed camera offences, plod send a form to the registered keeper asking who was driving. It's an offence to refuse to disclose in these situations (with a penalty similar to the speeding offence) so you may as well disclose who was driving. (Tip here; if you go through a camera at a ridiculous speed, take the points for the failure to disclose offence as the speeding offence will probably entail a bigger penalty!) The council don't have similar powers to make you state who was driving. All Mr GC has to say is that he wasn't driving, and he won't say who was! Job done.