Torture two kids and almost kill them = 5 years
Insurance fiddle = 6.5 years.

can't have done that much damage he's back up to his old habits

[x] Parents should be sterilised and prevented from having children

All parents? That's a radical idea!
But yeah, it's all very well getting vitriolic about these lads, when they were shaped by years of abuse. Question is, how to stop this sort of thing being passed on through the generations?

For instance the chances of Baby P (if the poor kid had survived) growing up and becoming a serial abuser, dope addict, ASBO-type person would have been very great. Then everyone would move from regarding him as a poor innocent little lamb, to condemning him as an evil monster.

No matter how much in benefits you throw at people like this, you're wasting your time. The great myth being that if you lift families out of poverty they change, wrong, the poverty is in their character and you can't do much with that. These people will always be with us, it's a case of spotting the signs early, which the authorities are so dismal at acting upon.
Shit parents...?, take the kids off them, never mind trying to 'keep the family together'.. it aint a family.

concurring.. He needs locking up as well ..The children are a direct product of what he put them through..Yet I bet at this moment he's sitting at home at our expense.. I can't believe the bleeding hearts who when locking up these demons they fail to stop the thing that produced them (and in theory could and probably will produce more ). If we had a breed of dog producing creatures like this we'd make it illegal.. How come we can't do this with people?

Some good points Mr Fireball.

Except for the final one.

In my opinion there are too many fkin social workers. The strategy for scum like this should be segregation from society and possible death rather than integration and mollycoddling.

Because were not dogs

I was reading what those two lads did to the other two. Absolutely horrific and the young victims will have nightmares and flashbacks of this for many years.

It was really sickening to read what they went through.

The worst part of it was there response to why they stopped beating the kids, "because our arms were tired"

There should be an easier system in place for reporting the actions of families such as that in the early stages. People turn a blind eye to their antics because there's too much fear of retribution in place. We need to instill a custom of abhorence at the unacceptable behaviour of some of these deviants, as to let it be seen as acceptable makes them think they are doing nothing wrong.

As Chip implies Social Workers can only work within the law as it stands and ending the cycle of inadequate parenting, abuse and offending culture would need drastic changes to legislation. As the ruling classes are usually immune from these behaviours there is little chance of any change.
Again as Chip implies, Children’s Homes have been systematically run down with the over riding emphasis on children staying with their parents, or if taken away, to be returned as soon as possible. The belief being that children are better off with their own parent(s). This is a legal remit – I believe many of you and most, if not all, Social Workers know of many exceptions.
There are many cases that do have positive outcomes, through a combination of interventions that include parenting orders, fostering / adoption, counselling or just plain support. None of these positive outcomes are deemed newsworthy. The result being that no one wants to become a social worker (it’s a minimum 3 year degree course with pretty poor money when qualified and a lot of responsibility).

On a personal note, I once applied to do a social work post-grad course but was turned down because I had no experience. Trying to get experience, I was turned down because I'd no qualifications. How did you do it, Hawklord?

at least they are getting something right:

"The mastermind behind one of the biggest gun smuggling operations in the UK has been jailed for 30 years at Manchester Crown Court"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manc ... 475315.stm

Well, the way I did it was to work for the local authority for a while as a non qualified worker, this doesn't have to be in child care as the qualification is generic. Most social services departments have many posts related to Social Work such as working with older people, physical and sensory disabilities, learning disabilities, Mental Health and of course children’s services which include youth offending, fostering / adoption, family group work, educational welfare, review team and children & families. The authority then paid for me to get qualified.
Alternatively you could gain experience by working for a voluntary / charitable / third sector organisation such as Help the Aged, Mencap, MIND, Scope, Sure start etc. all of these organisations have paid posts so it is not just a case of being a volunteer although this is also a way of gaining experience.

The qualification has fairly recently become a degree, whereas before it was a diploma. As a result entrance on to the course is now much harder, for example people now need a good standard of maths as a lot of the job is budgetary – dealing with funding streams, benefits and finances.

Maybe Ripper should give it a go.

That's a very interesting suggestion. People with questionable habits and poor parenting skills would sharpen up their act quickly enough, if they knew Ripper was on his way round to theirs, armed with a social worker certificate.

Interestingly, it might not be as difficult as Westerners make it look. I read a while ago of people with severe mental health problems shipping out to live with Ashanti tribesmen in E Africa. Simply living in a more peaceful, close-to-the-land, non-competitive environment reduced their symptoms almost at once. Which says a lot about where the problem lies.

Chip, I am perfectly aware what indeterminate means. I am also perfectly aware what 'a minimum of five years' means.

That aside, my point was more about the over the top sentencing of the canoe two.

Don't we have an age of criminal responsibility??

Shouldn't there be an age range of say 11-15 years old where the parents are also responsible??

I mean, where are they while the little fuckers are ripping up the town??

"The age of criminal responsibility was raised from eight years old to ten, in 1963.1 But the law continued to presume that children under fourteen did not know the difference between right and wrong (“doli incapax”) unless the prosecution proved otherwise, until 1999.2 So the difference is that, since 1963 a child under ten may not be tried or punished for any criminal behaviour, and until 1999 a child under fourteen could not be convicted unless the court could be satisfied that he knew what he was doing was seriously wrong, not merely naughty or misch
The presumption was abolished by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. In the White Paper No More Excuses: A New Approach to Tackling Youth Crime in England and Wales, published in November 1997, the Government emphasised that it considered the notion of doli incapax to be contrary to common sense and said that the presumption of doli incapax should be abolished rather than reversed, reiterating its view expressed in the consultation paper Tackling Youth Crime, which was published in September 1997."

and from Directgov
"What is parental responsibility?
While the law does not define in detail what parental responsibility is, the following list sets out the key roles:

providing a home for the child
having contact with and living with the child
protecting and maintaining the child
disciplining the child
choosing and providing for the child's education
determining the religion of the child
agreeing to the child's medical treatment
naming the child and agreeing to any change of the child's name
accompanying the child outside the UK and agreeing to the child's emigration, should the issue arise
being responsible for the child's property
appointing a guardian for the child, if necessary
allowing confidential information about the child to be disclosed"