Right or wrong?

I honestly don't understand the question. Right or wrong, surely it's like one of those questions were there is no right or wrong answer.

The man has his opinions, they voted on whether to let him air them, that's what he'll do.

Griffin. yes.
The holocaust bloke no to deny the holocaust happened he must be mad.

I'm asking whether you reckon they were right or wrong to invite him. Personally I see no issue with it - voltaire and all that.

It's not only Griffin, it's historian/Holocaust denier David Irving.

It's a double edged sword. By allowing them in, you give them the platform to express their views and, with that, the validation of their abhorrent arguments as actual options that deserve to be considered in the public domain. The other side, however, says that debate should not be stifled censorship and that their points should be out argued rather than banned, as it will make them look like martyrs instead of bigots. One thing we must consider is the fact that they're at Oxford SU to debate free speech, not their ideas (though I'm sure they'll come in somewhere along the way). It's also easy to figure out that, regardless of how convincing or unconvincing an argument theirs is, Irving and Griffin will lose the debate as the debating society members vote on the outcome.

Oh, and they should never have been invited in the first place as it inevitable that this was to happen.

I think it's right.

What's the point of a debating society if you don't address as many issues as possible not just PC ones?

A good debater should be able to tie Griffin in knots. Irving might be a different prospect. If you get then onto race and the holocaust they will surely shoot themselves in the foot.

Be interesting.

Very true. Irving, for all of his faults, is still a well respected and reputable historian in many circles and seems an intelligent enough guy so he should be more than ready for tonight.

Irving, for all his faults, is a grade A cock, thats my erstwhile contribution to this debate, I mean does he still think the earth is flat as well?

I don't disagree with that Mark, my point (if your comment was directed at me) is that Irving will be able to handle all of the attacks thrown at him tonight because of both his intellect and the fact he'll be well versed and well practiced at defending himself.

Nah mate - just makes him a dyed in the wool NAZI

Well, this is a bloke who once described himself as a 'mild fascist'. He doesn't deny Jews were killed; he just doesn't believe they were systematically killed off in the way that mainstream historians tell us. He also claims that Auschwitz was merely a prison camp that had to contend with a high death rate. Utter bollocks and as misguided as saying it didn't happen at all but there are many eminent historians out there who would claim him to be an intellect, especially for his early works.

whats amatter with barn owls like!

YES, he should be allowed, we either have free speech or fachism,
Incitement to violence is another matter though, ie Hook at Finsbury Park mosque. I've seen them lot a few times outside the mosque, with their faces covered. All roads blocked off on friday dinnertime. But this government should allow protests and marches against it or for it.

Barn owls or any other owls don't sh*t bones, they re-gurgitate them in owl pellets. Comes out via their mouths.

300k Eastern european immigrants in the last couple of years

Or 56,000 depending on who you believe. Your estimate was made by the ultra-conservative Migration Watch, an organisation who definitely don't have an axe to grind

Ive worked with about a thousand this year at least 200 were called peter

Good point you never saw protesters trying to stop Mr Hook spouting his vile but there are always there to stop the BNP spouting there vile must be a white thing.

Well Housing Hartlepool are changing some of their documentation to include stuff in Polish

& as I understand it the PCT are looking for Polish speaking midwives

Now there is nothing wrong with that (I suppose) but it suggests a sizeable Polish community in this town, suggestes the immigration figure could be over 56k

No problem - just making a point about the number, if HH are changing their literature & the PCT are looking for people with language skills we must be looking at a fair population in Hartlepool

I'm led to believe there about 400-500 Polish in the town, could be wrong though. That estimate I put up is from the Home Office, who released that figure last week. It only applies to registered workers so the figure maybe slightly higher, but as it is in their best interests to register it won't be that much higher. Going off on a tangent here but I like the Poles. I travelled most of Eastern and parts of Western Europe in the summer and found them to be a good set of people. The girls are absolutely beautiful and one I met on a night out had actually just came back from working in Ireland for half a year to earn a bit of money and improve her English.

Haven't ever met anyone from Poland so couldn't comment - but have no axe to grind

Home Office figures however

I wouldn't trust this government (or it's civil service) to count paper clips - never mind numbers of immigrants - the number could be anything from 73 to 594869

Not that I am attacking the sentiment of what you are saying Mr KK

Yes very nice people but a lot i know save up then go back to poland every know and then and bladder it up there. Also lots of bussiness luv em no complaints from them working for mininum wages . labourers on sites down south could get 80-quid a day three years ago now the poles are doing it for 45 ouid ,

I think it would be best if we agree to differ on that one, suffice to say the cost of the above is an enormous tax burden for the people of this country (mostly through stealth taxes) & the crippling of the small business sector who are being taxed out of existence (particularly small limited companies)

But I think that is a discussion for another day

Ah, I wouldn't dream you would. I should clarify myself a little more; there's been about 500-600,000 applications to work here over the past couple of years but that 56,000 is a figure given by the Home Office for the people who have registered to work between July-October this year so this is usually taken as a count of how many are over here at any one time. This figure has went down since the past year. Now I know the Home Office aren't infallible, but are they really that inept? Other organisations, such as the Institute for Public Policy Research, have also backed these numbers up, so I don't think they can be that far off. As Chip says, all wild estimates do is fuel the fire of Daily Mail/Daily Express type publications who'd have us believe they're flocking over here in their millions and stealing our jobs/houses//swans!

Well said Mr Cowboy.

Anybody who thinks Gordon Brown is good for the economy needs their head read.

The only people he's done owt for are the rich and the idle.

Could not agree more Chip

I wonder what the polish thought of the Brits who worked over there in the 70's, or what the Germans thought of the Brits who migrated there for work in the 80's ( or south Africa, Australia, France etc...)
Vast majority are coming here to work, I visited Poland recently a place called Wroclaw, The plane going into Poland was full of...Polish people

I think we were the only brits on board! The young Polish lad next to me traveled for 30 hours by bus to end up in Derby shelf stacking in Wilko's despite having a degree, and was returning home for the first time in almost 8 months.

Vote Chip
Migration and Immigration are two very different things

Back on topic, my experience of revisionist historians tends to be one where they make wild claims to support their personal agendas, as if to excuse their actions. It's the same with Marxist historians.

Free speech is fine, but the discussion was probably raised only for Griffin to make a point of the hundreds of people who turned up to keep him out. Griffin himself would have used the free speech argument to show how the "liberals" (i.e. anyone with common sense) deny his right to speak about what he believes in.

Irving is a very worrying character though. He supported apartheid, was jailed last year for supporting the work of the Nazi Party and said that Germany was Britain's "natural ally". He goes as far as to say that the 1956 Hungarian Uprising was against the Jews because they controlled the Soviet Union (don't know how).

I like what he wrote for his young daughter:

I am a Baby Aryan
Not Jewish or Sectarian
I have no plans to marry an
Ape or Rastafarian.

Oh dear.

But he is intellectual though, so it's OK

My nephew lives in Sleaford nr Boston Lincs the 3 bedroomed house next to him was leased by a polish couple who my nephew said are hard working nice people.
Then within 4 weeks it all changed 3 other families moved into the same house the noise. the volume of rubbish.the parking and when they are all togeather very agressive.
1 house. 4 families. but only 1 council tax bill.
So who pays for the excess my guess my nephew.

What excess, there is not limit to the amount of people living in the house, that is the whole point of the council tax

Answer this

Do this Polish family(ies) contribute NI & Tax, they will because they ARENT & CANNOT get JSA or anything of that nature

Can you say the same for many large families living in various areas of the UK?

Bad luck chubby, it wasn't,

What excess, there is not limit to the amount of people living in the house, that is the whole point of the council tax.

But if there are that many families in 1 house and there must be others else where paying 1 council tax but using every public service paid for by council tax payers the council tax must get higher to cope yet they are not paying.

Has your nephew done anything about it, complained to the local council, local press, local TV?

when is it i might go to oxford brooks uni in the bar and see what the clip of some of the people going in are

Yes the council are taking action about the noise and the health and safety are sorting out the excess rubbish tip.

Well said chip its just a shame the lazy barstewards on the dole dont get made to take the jobs.

I bet I know what country it was in though!

It was Austria, wasn't it?

Quite Ironic really!

Perhaps you're right. But you can definitely be prosecuted in France for denying there was a holocaust, and it is a law that has been enforced.

Holocaust Denial is definitely against the law in Germany and not unsurprisingly Israel also Austria & France as has been said. Hopefully in other countries as well although they are the only ones I am sure about.

Well, denying the holocaust is clearly bollocks, but going to jail for saying so seems a bit harsh. If we got jailed every time we talked bollocks who would do all the work?
I can't see what actual harm the denial does apart from causing ill feelings. If you want to wind up racial tension there must be far more effective ways than that.
If you said the holocaust was a Good Thing for example, that would be a completely different kettle of trout.

Ask mr hooky hand in Belmarsh he will agree with you.

And the maddest part of the world is............???????

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770

Yeah I know it's the Daily Tripe but ignore that bit.

You don't get that long for carrying a knife, but never mind eh!

aye, but it depends if the knife still has jam on it!!!!

Interesting isn't it. An Irishman calls a Welsh woman English and they both thought it was an insult.







Mind you the bitch bit mightnhave played a part in the Irishmans opinion.